Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I've been working on a DIY cleaning machine.  Ran my first movement through it tonight and it did a good job.  Parts came out clean and toasty dry.  Though, it was a new movement as my starting project, so the parts were pretty clean to begin with.  I'll next be running a vintage movement through it as a better cleaning test.

Here's a quick video of it in action, https://youtu.be/KrhK5E3GqVU

See photos below.

This is based on a lab stirring motor and controller unit.  Not perfect, but workable.  I used the timer on my phone instead of the one on the controller.  It is rated up to 3000 rpm.  I was trying to run at about 200-300 rpm, which is the speed knob barely on.  I would pull the basket up out of the liquid, but still in the jar, and spin at a faster rate to get out as much fluid before moving to the next station.

3D printed basket setup is originally from @muddtt with some minor tweaks that I made.  The jar brackets and dryer intake and exhaust parts were ones that I designed.  I used ABS plastic as it has good chemical and heat resistance.  STL files are available at https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5905166.

The drying station is based on a 12V PTC car heater fan.  The brass mini baskets came out very toasty after about a 10 minute spin dry.  The plastic baskets showed no negative affect from the heat.  The 12V power supply does get pretty warm.  Fortunately, the dry cycle doesn't need to be long.  I only plug in the heater when that station needs to be used and then unplug (easier to rotate the turntable that way).

I got a small 12" x 12" sheet of aluminum from Home Depot and cut 3/4" wide strips to make baffles for the bottom of the jars.  The square-ish mason jars were helpful to keep those baffles from spinning, as long as you splay the fins out.  Hopefully, these are getting the water to circulate better through the basket layers.

I am a bit disappointed in the turntable.  At 14" in diameter, it is large enough to have a wash and 3 rinse stations.  The problem is the rotating base is such a small diameter that it is tipsy if not loaded evenly.  I'm looking at getting a bigger rotating base for just a few bucks.  You could go with a smaller turntable if you just want 2 rinse stations.

I have just under $200 into this setup.  Of course, you don't have to use a turntable (just manually swap out jars), or dryer station (use a hair dryer) to go even more budget.  If you don't have a 3D printer, you could mount a stainless mesh basket to the metal spindle that comes with the stirring motor (not used in my setup).

At some point, I would like to try an automated design.  Maybe repurpose a 3D printer.  For giggles, I was able to easily fit 3 mason jars and my drying station on my Ender 3's bed.  Mount a stirring motor to the X-Z axis gantry.  Maybe repurpose the hotend heater, thermocouple and fan to make a drying station.  3D printed brackets to hold the jars and drying station in place on the bed.  Arduino or Raspberry Pi to control it all.  Not sure if anyone is interested in collaborating on such a project.

61e9ZfXW+-L._AC_SL1500_.jpg

20230307_182128.jpg

20230311_172857.jpg

Edited by gpraceman
  • Like 8
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Baffles on the sides, the jars would have to be bigger though. 

That would be tough to do with these jars.  The bottom baffles do at least help break up the vortex, which should be inducing some turbulence.  Many of the vintage machines that I have seen have the bottom baffles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, gpraceman said:

That would be tough to do with these jars.  The bottom baffles do at least help break up the vortex, which should be inducing some turbulence.  Many of the vintage machines that I have seen have the bottom baffles.

Interesting, I thought they reversed. That would be a good solution, software to slow/ stop the rotation and then reverse it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Baffles on the sides, the jars would have to be bigger though.

Baffles on the size the jar come in two forms that I've seen. In one there is the star shaped thing on the bottom and one protruding arm of going up the side just to break up the fluid a little bit. Then on the modern elma  machines they have what looks like a peculiar Screen that looks peculiar but is doing the same thing let me see of him find a picture. Notice there is a band at the top of the mesh or whatever that is. And along the top there is a rectangular openings that's to tell you how full the fill the jar.

Amusements for cleaning machines over the years. For instance square jar versus round jar. Yes I've had people are heard people argue that a square jar means the fluid won't rotate and it will clean better. Then a course in around jar where you could actually get the fluid to spin conceivably with the item in the jar etc. So in addition to having a baffle there's other ways to deal with this. Like spinning a certain amount of time stopping and then going in the opposite direction I've seen cleaning machines do that. Then the cleaning machine that I got the images from the users manual I know someone who just purchased one and he was concerned because the motor didn't seem to be spinning quite right? At the slowest speed what he noticed was its pulsating. I think basically what is doing it spins and stops for just a moment and then it starts again. I'm guessing this is so that the fluid will flow better so when you stop the fluid will not stop and come through better that's another idea for this problem.

Then something I don't know about the little tiny baskets? I don't know what the propeller like thing how much up-and-down motion you're going to get. Because that would be the only way the fluid goes through the baskets in your case. They do make other baskets that are wire mesh and then they just have a top which is also mash you can get more fluid through them unfortunately there astronomically expensive brand-new. I must go attaching an image in fact everything in the pictures that I've attached is very expensive. Which of course is why we like our DIY stuff

cleaning machine jar with the insert.JPG

cleaning machine baskets elma.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Interesting, I thought they reversed. That would be a good solution, software to slow/ stop the rotation and then reverse it. 

Some machines will reverse direction.  I was going for a pretty bare bones setup.  There is a motor controller board that can be added to this system that can be programmed to reverse the motor after some time (and then back again), but that adds to the cost and the complexity.

3 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Baffles on the size the jar come in two forms that I've seen. In one there is the star shaped thing on the bottom and one protruding arm of going up the side just to break up the fluid a little bit. Then on the modern elma  machines they have what looks like a peculiar Screen that looks peculiar but is doing the same thing let me see of him find a picture. Notice there is a band at the top of the mesh or whatever that is. And along the top there is a rectangular openings that's to tell you how full the fill the jar.

Amusements for cleaning machines over the years. For instance square jar versus round jar. Yes I've had people are heard people argue that a square jar means the fluid won't rotate and it will clean better. Then a course in around jar where you could actually get the fluid to spin conceivably with the item in the jar etc. So in addition to having a baffle there's other ways to deal with this. Like spinning a certain amount of time stopping and then going in the opposite direction I've seen cleaning machines do that. Then the cleaning machine that I got the images from the users manual I know someone who just purchased one and he was concerned because the motor didn't seem to be spinning quite right? At the slowest speed what he noticed was its pulsating. I think basically what is doing it spins and stops for just a moment and then it starts again. I'm guessing this is so that the fluid will flow better so when you stop the fluid will not stop and come through better that's another idea for this problem.

Then something I don't know about the little tiny baskets? I don't know what the propeller like thing how much up-and-down motion you're going to get. Because that would be the only way the fluid goes through the baskets in your case. They do make other baskets that are wire mesh and then they just have a top which is also mash you can get more fluid through them unfortunately there astronomically expensive brand-new. I must go attaching an image in fact everything in the pictures that I've attached is very expensive. Which of course is why we like our DIY stuff

cleaning machine jar with the insert.JPG

cleaning machine baskets elma.JPG

Hmm.  I wonder if I could some up with something 3D printed for the side of the jar.  I'd have to think on that one.  It would be difficult to insert something like that into the jar (like assembling a ship in a bottle).

I did try with and without the bottom baffle and the baffle did reduce how far up the jar sides that the liquid would climb, so it does seem to be doing some whirlpool busting.

I do think the propeller vanes on the lid are forcing liquid through the basket.  As those are directional, reversing the motor may not be too effective, other than making some brief turbulence.

8 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Stir the liquid instead of the basket?

Screenshot_20230320_202044_Chrome.jpg

I've seen such a stirrer discussed and people were not liking the magnetic issue when it comes to watch parts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

We need to model the fluid dynamics to find the optimum arrangement.  Without suitable software, we would have to rely on empirical evidence. 

Unfortunately, Computational Fluid Dynamics was not a course that I did well in for my Aerospace Engineering degree.  That and I forgot all of the formulas from all those years ago.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, gpraceman said:

Unfortunately, Computational Fluid Dynamics was not a course that I did well in for my Aerospace Engineering degree.  That and I forgot all of the formulas from all those years ago.

I have a degree in chemical engineering, I've forgotten most of the formulae too but they wouldn't help us.  A model or experiment is the only option.  The problem with experimentation is we would require standardised items to clean, to compare the results.  Probably more difficult than the fluid dynamics.  We would also need holes in the samples to represent jewels etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/21/2023 at 12:35 AM, RichardHarris123 said:

We need to model the fluid dynamics to find the optimum arrangement.  Without suitable software, we would have to rely on empirical evidence. 

Ha ha - I remember an old professor saying that when he died he is going to ask God to explain 2 things, the first is quantum mechanics, and the second is CFD.... he said he was  hopeful about the first, but not the second.

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I imagine the baskets spinning back and forth in the jar is so chaotic that a CFD model isn't going to tell you much about the differences.

Experimental results seems better.  But how to get standardized dirty parts and then get an empirical evaluation of how clean they got?

Maybe use a proxy for cleaning.  Some kind of pill, that dissolves in water or a cleaning solution, but not too fast.  Probably lots of existing things that do this.  Sugar cube or pearl sugar?  Salt tablet?  Calcium Carbonate pill (.e.g Tums)?

Mass them before and after.  Probably need do that dry.  The more mass lost, the better it was "cleaned".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, xyzzy said:

But how to get standardized dirty parts and then get an empirical evaluation of how clean they got?

Maybe somebody's already thought of the problem?

Notice at the link below where they have technical documentation. Under the freedom machine is a reference to an Omega cleaning. In other words there proud to say that their machine can clean as well as Omega Is specifying.

http://lititzpp.com/documentation.php

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can share something I found when I was building my cleaning machine, about the effects of baffles and fluid dynamics pictures.

Myself use the star shape baffles like @gpracemandid, it works well.

With keywords you can find a bunch of videos on youtube, two videos you can take a look about how it works: 

 

 

S__47423495.thumb.jpg.92d27d15e138d55449683f85442e45c9.jpg

S__47423497.thumb.jpg.5c844639ede40f4539d97aa1c3d01c1c.jpg

Edited by Trey
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 9 months later...

I have made some changes to my DIY machine over time and thought that I should do an update of this thread.

  1. Outer wash basket has been redesigned with larger openings.  Prints a bit faster and uses less filament.  Also added a bottom impeller to encourage fluid flow through the basket layers.
  2. Added a basket layer that holds 4 of the mini mesh baskets.  I still have one for holding 3 of those baskets.
  3. Drying shroud was made a bit larger.  Less chance of the basket rubbing against the sides.
  4. Bottom jar baffles replaced with stainless steel mesh along the sides of the jars.  The bottom baffles looked to be reacting with the wash and rinse chemicals.  The stainless steel mesh has not had that issue.  Testing with and without the baffles does show some reduction in the swirling of the fluid.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BMTY6KH4/
  5. I extended the stirring rod for the basket.  My 3D printed extension ended up breaking.  I used a coupler and a length of stainless steel rod instead.  I did grind some flats on the ends for the basket and the coupler to tighten to.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07P5YZKY5/

The STL files have been updated for the 3D printed items.  https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5905166

20231228_112549.thumb.jpg.1e17fdcb0ecc874d484ad6df6788c7d3.jpg

20231202_102110.thumb.jpg.3acaaf7427fb09a72451e0ef8c7bae4b.jpg

20231228_111137.thumb.jpg.f2d890eb2fc844d89344141fa4b8755e.jpg

20231228_111156.thumb.jpg.94476529eaa5d035a7ac3ebc8026513d.jpg

Edited by gpraceman
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, gpraceman said:

I have made some changes to my DIY machine over time and thought that I should do an update of this thread.

  1. Outer wash basket has been redesigned with larger openings.  Prints a bit faster and uses less filament.
  2. Added a basket layer that holds 4 of the mini mesh baskets.  I still have one for holding 3 of those baskets.
  3. Drying shroud was made a bit larger.  Less chance of the basket rubbing against the sides.
  4. Bottom jar baffles replaced with stainless steel mesh along the sides of the jars.  The bottom baffles looked to be reacting with the wash and rinse chemicals.  The stainless steel mesh has not had that issue.  Testing with and without the baffles does show some reduction in the swirling of the fluid.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BMTY6KH4/
  5. I extended the stirring rod for the basket.  My 3D printed extension ended up breaking.  I used a coupler and a length of stainless steel rod instead.  I did grind some flats on the ends for the basket and the coupler to tighten to.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07P5YZKY5/

The STL files have been updated for the 3D printed items.  https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5905166

20231228_112549.thumb.jpg.1e17fdcb0ecc874d484ad6df6788c7d3.jpg

20231202_102110.thumb.jpg.3acaaf7427fb09a72451e0ef8c7bae4b.jpg

20231228_111137.thumb.jpg.f2d890eb2fc844d89344141fa4b8755e.jpg

20231228_111156.thumb.jpg.94476529eaa5d035a7ac3ebc8026513d.jpg

Thats well cool, i love the inset tray for the small mesh baskets. How does the filament hold up to the cleaning solutions , elma wf pro plays havoc with some plastics. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thats well cool, i love the inset tray for the small mesh baskets. How does the filament hold up to the cleaning solutions , elma wf pro plays havoc with some plastics. 

The ABS has been holding up well so far.  I see no signs of deterioration.  I use the L&R wash and rinse solutions. 

I do a 5 min wash, 5 min rinse #1, 5 min rinse #2, a 1 min IPA rinse, and a 5 min heated dry.  After each wash and rinse, I do at least a 1 min spin off of the basket at higher RPMs, above the fluid but still inside the jar.  I clean the balance wheel and pallet fork separately, so no worries about IPA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, gpraceman said:

The ABS has been holding up well so far.  I see no signs of deterioration.  I use the L&R wash and rinse solutions. 

I do a 5 min wash, 5 min rinse #1, 5 min rinse #2, a 1 min IPA rinse, and a 5 min heated dry.  After each wash and rinse, I do at least a 1 min spin off of the basket at higher RPMs, above the fluid but still inside the jar.  I clean the balance wheel and pallet fork separately, so no worries about IPA.

Any plastic I've used doesn't seem to be bothered by IPA. It comes in plastic bottles as does the elma solutions , so there are some plastic materials that are completely unaffected. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Any plastic I've used doesn't seem to be bothered by IPA. It comes in plastic bottles as does the elma solutions , so there are some plastic materials that are completely unaffected. 

ABS has more resistance to chemicals and heat than some of the other printable filaments.  I do have to zip up my enclosure when printing ABS to retain the heat and often print with a brim to keep the part from warping.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...
Posted (edited)

I've been intrigued by everyone's input here...so I decided to give this a shot.

I bought the"typical" Pearl watch-machine basket and trays, for about $65.

The trays are good,..the housing is a nightmare ! Thought it would take the mixer off my bench at anything above about 200rpm. The housing is cast of course,..and it's not "true" at all...so the harmonic vibration was insane.

So,..I bit the bullet and bought the Elma housing and top. Not the baskets though, as the Pearl one's fit the Elma. Saved a bunch there. The basket and lid came to about $80 with shipping.

The opening in the Elma top is 8mm, and the shaft that came with my stirrer is 6mm.

I bought a piece of steel tube, 8mm O.D., and 6mm I.D.

Cut off about an inch of the tube, and drove the rod into it.

Gives a really snug fit....

Lightly champfered the leading edge of the 8mm section, then lightly tapped it into the top of the Elma lid.

Spins like a dream now

So... I have about $240 total into this including jars and steel mesh for the wave breakers

 

I'm pretty happy

Best to you all

 

Randy

20240507_171356.jpg

20240507_171412.jpg

20240507_171500.jpg

20240507_171513.jpg

Edited by Randy55
used a wrong word in my description
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Randy55 said:

I've been intrigued by everyone's input here...so I decided to give this a shot.

I bought the"typical" Pearl watch-machine basket and trays, for about $65.

The trays are good,..the housing is a nightmare ! Thought it would take the mixer off my bench at anything above about 200rpm. The housing is cast of course,..and it's not "true" at all...so the harmonic vibration was insane.

So,..I bit the bullet and bought the Elma housing and top. Not the baskets though, as the Pearl one's fit the Elma. Saved a bunch there. The basket and lid came to about $80 with shipping.

The opening in the Elma top is 8mm, and the shaft that came with my stirrer is 6mm.

I bought a piece of steel tube, 8mm O.D., and 6mm I.D.

Cut off about an inch of the tube, and drove the rod into it.

Gives a really snug fit....

Lightly champfered the leading edge of the 8mm section, then lightly tapped it into the top of the Elma lid.

Spins like a dream now

So... I have about $240 total into this including jars and steel mesh for the wave breakers

 

I'm pretty happy

Best to you all

 

Randy

20240507_171356.jpg

20240507_171412.jpg

20240507_171500.jpg

20240507_171513.jpg

It is possible to true the pearl basket to run better takes a good hour of filing though.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Don't give up. You just need patience and practice. Don't use force or try to screw down the plate before making sure everything is in place. My first few watches took me like 45 minutes to get the train wheels in. Now it usually takes me less than a minute. Make sure that all the bottom pivots are in their respective holes before putting on the top plate. Then apply gentle pressure with a pegwood or gloved finger. Start from the barrel, 2nd wheel, 3rd wheel.... and finally the escape wheel. You can feel the plate drop each time you get a pivot in. If you experience the pivots that you have already gotten in coming out of their holes when you work on other wheels down line, you can put 1 or 2 screws nearer the barrel side in but don't exert any force on the screws. Just lightly turn the screws until you feel pressure and backoff 1/4 turn. This will prevent the plates from separating.  I use a homemade tool with a brass wire, shaped like an oiler to lightly touch the wheels to guide them into place. I find that an oiler made of hardened steel can leave scratches on the brass wheels. Once you think you have gotten all the pivots in, test it by using a blower to blow on the escape wheel. It should spin freely. Continue applying pressure on the top plate with the pegwood or finger until you lightly tighten all the screws. Don't tighten fully yet until you reconfirm that the wheels are able to spin freely. And reconfirm again after you have fully tightened all the screws. What you are experiencing is normal. All of us have gone through it. Don't work on watches when you are tired or frustrated. All of us can tell you what that leads to. But I'm sure you'll experience a few hard lessons even after reading this advice. It's only human. Go forth and practice. Good luck!
    • by the way this is very confusing to me? You have a 7s26a and you're comparing it to a 7s26b which is confusing to me because they're not the same? Watch companies are rather amusing when it comes the part numbers seemingly watches with similar  numbers as you're implying should be exactly identical but in this case they are very very dramatically different for instance the 7s26a balance part number is 0310 020 the 7s26b has a different part number 0310 197 as the part numbers are entirely different there must be a reason it noticed that I made two terms in the quote above in bold regulator pins are versus the etachron  system. In addition to changing the regulation part more than likely they change the hairspring. So this would typically main you wouldn't build a swap balance completes from one type to the other because they will be entirely different. this is where looking at the technical guide might yield some amusing information. you'll note in the 7s26b  service guide it explains what the difference is. It makes a reference to the balance staff which is totally inconsequential for this discussion. But the really big difference is the A  version has conventional regulator pins and the B  has is the Etachron  system. In @Jon excellent images up above he didn't explain something? if you look carefully at the images below you'll notice that the outer terminal curve is different  as a guest to accommodate the etachron  system it looks like the terminal curve is farther out. So yes exactly as the parts list indicates the balance completes will look different because they are different. Because they are different there are not interchangeable. so basically because the letter changes at the end in this particular case we end up with two separate balance completes as proven by the parts numbers. Balance completes that are entirely different to accommodate the regulation system conceivably with entirely different characteristics of timing as they are entirely different. So your observation of the balances are different shape is correct they are different.      
    • See, the problem with widening to a little bit wider diam is that the bit will 'grab' too much at a time and will get in too fast by itself, then it will stuck and break imediatey. If enlargening from 0.3 to 0.5 needed, complitelly different drill bit must be made - it must be similar to the ones they use for weapon cannons, with one cutting edge and with angle that will not cut fast. The other option is to enlarge the hole like they do on big lathes with cutter for internal turning, that will be small enough to get in the hole The idea with the plugging could work, but I haven't try it. The pug should be only a little bit softer than the piece and must get in completelly to the botom of the hole.  
    • Thanks for all the comments. I think I'll go back to restoring BMW motorcycles and making model steam engines.  Dave
    • Yep my thoughts the same,  i realised i slipped up with the smaller drill half way through. Out of curiosity if you had to widen a hole, could it be plugged and re- drilled ? 
×
×
  • Create New...