Quality Chinese Tools

[mbwatch]

On 3/22/2022 at 6:08 AM, Paul80 said:

A well made tool with 50 Stakes and 10 Anvils, all machines to a high standard with size code etched on each stake, codes seem to match those supplied by Bergeon etc.

Only used it a few times sofar but it did everything expected without any issues.

I have been interested in this staking kit as my "first" kit, but having no prior experience, it's difficult to tell if the included punches would suit my primary use for it - pocket watch balance staff replacement. When comparing against a vintage K&D set with 150+ stakes, it's difficult to know what pieces are essential. On the other hand, a vintage set can be only about $100 more.

[mbwatch]

On 6/13/2022 at 1:32 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Any thoughts on this ? Use of ? i have an idea with a little addition and adaption Accuracy of ?        

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133518805304?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=kM93z78PTHW&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=tBiLZaCfRb2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

On 6/13/2022 at 2:08 AM, gbyleveldt said:

What makes a micrometer designed for "watchmaking" so special? Is it that the measuring faces are larger than standard micrometers?

I have owned this micrometer 3-4 years for a different purpose, before I started working with watches. I play the oboe, and we hand make all our own reeds. A dial micrometer is used to gouge the middle out of a piece of bamboo-like reed cane to a precise thickness (0.58mm-0.59mm for my taste). So mine has small bead shaped tips ideal for measuring a concave surface. It works okay but its mechanical action feels a little janky & stiff. I paid about $25 USD.

I also own a Mitutoyo of the same style for maybe $150 USD. The mechanical action on the Mitutoyo is much smoother and easier to engage but it can also be harder to get a stable reading because it's so sensitive. It consistently reads 0.01mm lower than the cheap one but I've never checked with a feeler steel as to which is closer to the truth. I'm not a pro player so the margin of error isn't a big deal for me.

[jdm]

On 6/13/2022 at 9:08 AM, gbyleveldt said:

What makes a micrometer designed for "watchmaking" so special? Is it that the measuring faces are larger than standard micrometers?

The ability of measuring minuscule parts using two hands, that is, spring operated and benchtop. And the anvils are shaped for this purpose, actually there is two sets of them.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/micrometer-bench-top-kafer-germany

Edited July 28, 2022 by jdm

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, jdm said:

The ability of measuring minuscule parts using two hands, that is, spring operated and benchtop. And the anvils are shaped for this purpose, actually there is two sets of them.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/micrometer-bench-top-kafer-germany

Like this jdm and been looking at those for a while, good for measuring jewels or anything that requires a table to sit on or not particularly easy to hold with tweezers. I use this which is great for measuring stems and staffs very accurately 

[MechanicMike]

question: for measuring pivots, jeweled gauge plate or bench micrometer?

[jdm]

12 hours ago, MechanicMike said:

question: for measuring pivots, jeweled gauge plate or bench micrometer?

Either is fine. If have both, that gives you a comparison mean for extra accuracy. In the end is a personal preference to have more or less of redundant / specialized / fancy tools. 

[Paul80]

Or as Confucius said, an engineer with one measuring device always knows the correct size and an engineer with two or more measuring devices never knows the correct size

[MechanicMike]

7 hours ago, jdm said:

Either is fine. If have both, that gives you a comparison mean for extra accuracy. In the end is a personal preference to have more or less of redundant / specialized / fancy tools. 

i have the former, but looked at the link you gave. spendy little creatures but well worth it I suppose. I have a digital micrometer and calipers but I find it difficult to measure-fussy and fiddly. i may just look into a bench mic in the future.

[MechanicMike]

On 7/29/2022 at 5:55 AM, jdm said:

Either is fine. If have both, that gives you a comparison mean for extra accuracy. In the end is a personal preference to have more or less of redundant / specialized / fancy tools. 

what are the increments on your plate gauge? my numbers start at 7 and end with 50 in 1/2 increments. so would that mean .07mm to .5mm in .5mm increments? im just so used to dealing in imperial measurements sometimes this has had me confused. 

[VWatchie]

On 7/29/2022 at 12:31 AM, MechanicMike said:

question: for measuring pivots, jeweled gauge plate or bench micrometer?

I would recommend a Seitz jewelled pivot gauge for measuring pivots and avoid using a bench micrometre for the reason stated by @nickelsilver in the below-linked post. I only use my bench micrometre and/or my JKA-Feintaster for measuring the outer diameter of the jewels.

 

[MechanicMike]

On 8/19/2022 at 4:27 AM, VWatchie said:

I would recommend a Seitz jewelled pivot gauge for measuring pivots

I recently purchased one but I'm so used to reading in inches this one has me a bit confused although I think I've got it. The range is 7 to 50 which I take is .07 mm to .50 mm? is that the correct way to read  it? Spendy little critters thats for sure but worth it.

[LittleWatchShop]

On 7/28/2022 at 5:31 PM, MechanicMike said:

question: for measuring pivots, jeweled gauge plate or bench micrometer?

I have a jka feintaster and the Bergeon tool shown up above, and I have a Seitz jewel plate.  I also have a smaller vintage micrometer that resolves to 10 microns.  When turning a staff (posted in another thread), I use the smaller micrometer because I can make a measurement while the staff is chucked up.  The JKA is invaluable for doing the various measurements between various points on a staff, but it has to be removed from the chuck (which I avoid at all cost).

When finishing the recent staff, I used the jewel plate to make sure the pivots were sized correctly.

This brings me to my latest dilemma.  How do you measure the linear dimension of a staff while chucked up?  What is needed is a depth measurement tool that is small.  Well, I have no such tool, so I fought with this.  Finally, I used the depth measurement feature of my Mitutoyo.  Wow...what a clunky method, but it kinda worked.

I have ordered this tool and it should arrive soon.  Will see how it works.  I wish the wings were shorter.

[dadistic]

Facing a similar dilemma, I'm going to try something based on a tip from Jerry Keiffer. Pin gages, as in something like this -

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/40427296

I'm going to try and use them as a reference when machining.  

[praezis]

A cheap and well working variant is a feeler gauge.

Frank

[LittleWatchShop]

2 hours ago, dadistic said:

Facing a similar dilemma, I'm going to try something based on a tip from Jerry Keiffer. Pin gages, as in something like this -

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/40427296

I'm going to try and use them as a reference when machining.  

I like.  Mainly because these would be good to test my collets for trueness.  I like the feeler gauge Idea of @praezisand I already have some of them...probably English though

Just ordered some metric gauges!!

 

[dadistic]

30 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I like.  Mainly because these would be good to test my collets for trueness.  I like the feeler gauge Idea of @praezisand I already have some of them...probably English though

Just ordered some metric gauges!!

 

Yes. I had the same thought, as I now have a bunch of used collets that I need to evaluate. I didn't think of the feeler gauge, but that's a great idea too. Thanks @praezis!

[MechanicMike]

23 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I have a jka feintaster and the Bergeon tool shown up above, and I have a Seitz jewel plate.  I also have a smaller vintage micrometer that resolves to 10 microns.  When turning a staff (posted in another thread), I use the smaller micrometer because I can make a measurement while the staff is chucked up.  The JKA is invaluable for doing the various measurements between various points on a staff, but it has to be removed from the chuck (which I avoid at all cost).

When finishing the recent staff, I used the jewel plate to make sure the pivots were sized correctly.

This brings me to my latest dilemma.  How do you measure the linear dimension of a staff while chucked up?  What is needed is a depth measurement tool that is small.  Well, I have no such tool, so I fought with this.  Finally, I used the depth measurement feature of my Mitutoyo.  Wow...what a clunky method, but it kinda worked.

I have ordered this tool and it should arrive soon.  Will see how it works.  I wish the wings were shorter.

there are ones that exist out there with shorter feet, some even having one short foot, for easier access. but I'm curious-do you have a known stop or zero point you can take a measurement from the depth micrometer? yes, sounds kinda clunky and fiddly. 

does your jewel plate measure in the way I stated above? i'm trying to find out because i think I'm reading it wrong.

[LittleWatchShop]

35 minutes ago, MechanicMike said:

there are ones that exist out there with shorter feet, some even having one short foot, for easier access. but I'm curious-do you have a known stop or zero point you can take a measurement from the depth micrometer? yes, sounds kinda clunky and fiddly. 

does your jewel plate measure in the way I stated above? i'm trying to find out because i think I'm reading it wrong.

I have not received it yet...it is in the mail, so I cannot say much about it until I do.  I am optimistic.

Yes, the jewel plate is as you read it.  I just turned a staff that needed a pivot size of 0.12.  I used both the jewel plate and a micrometer to cross check.  While chucked in the lathe, you have to be careful with the jewel plate (or anything for that matter) because it is easy to cock it slightly and bust the pivot.

My jewel plate was part of my inheritance, but I have looked at them on ebay out of curiosity...yup, pricey.

On dimensions...the JKA tick marks are 0.01 mm (10 thousandths of a mm).  This is, 10 um.  I prefer to think in terms if microns because that was my life in semiconductors for 40 years.  The jewel plate is marked in hundredths of a mm.  Confusing.

[mbwatch]

On 3/25/2022 at 8:22 AM, Paul80 said:

Next up is a cheap but still quality tool

A Crystal Press found at the link below for only £38

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32974408612.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.666c5b22pOlc91&algo_pvid=89ce2c17-ff1a-437d-9412-8c071e9cdb4d&algo_exp_id=89ce2c17-ff1a-437d-9412-8c071e9cdb4d-1&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id"%3A"66707322604"}&pdp_pi=-1%3B38.01%3B-1%3B-1%40salePrice%3BGBP%3Bsearch-mainSearch

Question about these screw-type crystal presses: Can they be used with acrylic crystals in the way that an old Robur style press works by bending the crystal down over a felted lower die and then bringing the case up to meet the compressed crystal? The old Robur dies appear to have been more smoothly concave than these.

I don't mind removing acrylic crystals with a crystal lift, but inserting new ones can be frustrating when the case falls between available crystal diameters and I go for the larger diameter.

(It seems clear these presses will work great on mineral & sapphire crystals)

[Neverenoughwatches]

23 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

Question about these screw-type crystal presses: Can they be used with acrylic crystals in the way that an old Robur style press works by bending the crystal down over a felted lower die and then bringing the case up to meet the compressed crystal? The old Robur dies appear to have been more smoothly concave than these.

I don't mind removing acrylic crystals with a crystal lift, but inserting new ones can be frustrating when the case falls between available crystal diameters and I go for the larger diameter.

(It seems clear these presses will work great on mineral & sapphire crystals)

I feel the dies for the screw type presses would not hold a crystal in its compressed state to be able to enter it into a case or bezel. Interesting question though that deserves more thought for adaptation. 

[GuyMontag]

I have the Bergon 8250 screw type press with lower bakelite concave dies and they work fine for acrylc crystals.

[mbwatch]

40 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

I have the Bergon 8250 screw type press with lower bakelite concave dies and they work fine for acrylc crystals.

I wonder if there's a knock off set of dies at the customary one-sixth-bergeon price point to use with the Chinese press in question.

[GuyMontag]

40 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

I wonder if there's a knock off set of dies at the customary one-sixth-bergeon price point to use with the Chinese press in question.

I couldn't find any myself. You can order the Bergeon ones individually from Ofrei, which is what I did and I bought the 06, 07, and 08 sizes for $9 each.

Edited September 17, 2022 by GuyMontag

[Neverenoughwatches]

23 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

I couldn't find any myself. You can order the Bergeon ones individually from Ofrei, which is what I did and I bought the 06, 07, and 08 sizes for $9 each.

Do these work by pressing the crystal straight into the case or by compression and then release of the crystal ?

[GuyMontag]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Do these work by pressing the crystal straight into the case or by compression and then release of the crystal ?

It's the same as with the Robur press, it compresses the crystal on the lower domed die then you lift the case up and release the crystal.

EDIT: I'm talking about the Bergeon press I mentioned above, I'm not sure about the Aliexpress ones.

Edited September 17, 2022 by GuyMontag