Smiths Astral advice sought please

[Davey57]

A friend has asked me to have a look at this clock for him. It has been to the clock repairer twice now but still has the same problem. It will run for a short time and then eventually it stops. I haven't done much except take it out of the case and observe what is going on. What I can see is, it will run fine and then the sub dial seconds hand stutters, sometimes it continues to run but often stops. It looks to me as if the movement is soaked in oil.  Watching the balance and escape wheel closely I can see it hesitate sometimes and occasionally looks as if it is going to go backwards, albeit very slightly, before it picks up again and carries on. I am of a mind that it is the oil gumming it up. If it was my own clock I would have no qualms about starting to strip it down. But it is a nice clock and they seem to fetch decent money so I don't want to harm it. Could I get away with removing the balance and escapement, cleaning the rest as best I can and then cleaning the balance etc before putting it back in. Applying lube where necessary of course. Or if it is thought best to strip the whole thing down, I might proceed with some guidance from you knowledgeable chaps. I'll add a couple of pics and a video of it running, the problem is hard to spot on the recording but if you look closely you might catch it. 

Many thanks in advance. 

Can't seem to upload the vid as it is a .MOV file. Are vids not allowed now?

 

[watchweasol]

Hi  loos a nice clock,  does it "stutter " on a regular basis and does it have a cycle (Ie)  every min  every 30 secs or the like. If so look for a bent tooth or teeth or even broken teeth. If its been away for repair that should not be the case. but a bent tooth/teeth maybe. If its covered in oil that will have to be addressed.  Let the movement down and remove the platform escapement. Dismantle the clock and reassemble without the spring reason bring to check the freedom of the train and for any tight spots which may be a bent pivot or faulty wheel. If everything checks out clean the movement and relubricate (Windles oil) and re check the train.  check the barrel and spring for being clean and lubricated. if all ok clean the platform and chesk the escate wheel pivots and teeth then lubricate with watch oil and re fit  paying attention to the depthing of the ecape pinion and the contrate wheel. once assembled put two or three turns on the spring and observe.    all the best.

[Davey57]

Hi,  No it's very random, just been watching it again and it was more obvious to see. The escape wheel bouncing back and forwards a couple of times and then carrying on for a beat or two then bouncing again then runs fine for a while, repeat. It looks like the barrel might be the source of the oil. I have no way to strip that down though. 

[rodabod]

I wonder if the stuttering you are observing is possibly a temporary loss of power getting through the train.

[oldhippy]

By the looks of the movement it is nothing to do with oil. What you have described sounds to me to be the depth of the teeth of the contrite wheel engaging to the escape wheel, you need to check the teeth. If the depth of engagement is correct you should be able to have the clock working no matter what the angle of the movement, it should even work up side down. You have an adjusting end shake screw, check the end that is contact with the contrite pivot make sure it is smooth and clean and it has a drop of oil on the tip that touches the adjusting screw. You might even need to adjust the position of the complete platform. Look for screw marks on the platform and see if that are in line with the platform screws. The whole platform should be looked at for wear I can't see if the escape wheel is jeweled or not, if not jeweled look at the pivots. The same goes for the pallets. Are the pallet stones tight and not loose.    

[watchweasol]

Hi can you post some  pictures of the platform escapement so we may be able get a closer look at the components,    thanks.

[HectorLooi]

Before you remove the platform escapement or adjust the depthing of the teeth, please remember to power down the mainspring. If you don't, it could result in serious damage to the wheels.

Could also post some photos of the front and back plates?

[Davey57]

Thanks all for the replies. It might not be possible to tell from the photos but there is a film of oil on almost everything and some of the pinions etc. The sheen on the barrel is oil which looks to be coming from the hole where the mainspring locates. The specks are bits of dust and muck.  All I did yesterday was give the bits I could reach a gentle rub with a soft dry brush and use my blower on the escapement. It's been running for about 18 hours now and keeping spot on time. I'll get a picture of the escapement for your perusal. Thanks again. 

[Davey57]

Here are a couple of shots of the escapement. I have not stripped anything down so I can’t show the front plate. 

[watchweasol]

Hi Dave  thanks for the pics without a hands on inspection hard to discern any problem, how has the ckocl performed in the last 24hrs.       cheers.

[Davey57]

Yes I know WW, photos can only show so much. The things still going well. I will just let it run itself down and take it from there. Maybe remove the balance and escapement and check those as OH advised. Clean it as best I can in situ then give it another try. Like I said, it's not mine and I would hate to be responsible if I ba**sed it up. I'll come back when the spring has wound down and I can then remove the balance etc and let you all have a look see. Thanks all for the help so far

[oldhippy]

Not a fully jeweled platform. The bottom escape wheel hole tends to wear more then the top one. Oil the complete platform with pocket watch oil. The hairspring doesn't look right it looks one sided. 

[Davey57]

The clock was running when I took the pic OH, maybe that's why the hairspring looks that way.

[watchweasol]

Hi Dave  A sensible approach, it is possible that a piece of dirt etc was the cause. If its running ok now with little or no intervention then as you deduced observation is the next thing to do .  when run down clean the platform and re fit and re test.  A dab of windles oil on the pivots and watch oil on the platform pivots.

[Davey57]

Well it was going to take days for the mainspring to wind down so as the weather prevented me going cycling today I decided to tackle the clock. I have removed the hands and dial, let down the mainspring. Should I just begin by taking out the balance and then the pallet bridge and escape wheel etc. Or, remove the platform complete and deal with it like that?

[oldhippy]

I would mark where the platform is, do not make a permanent mark use s marking pen something that you can remove. Take the complete platform off. 

[Davey57]

The platform is out now. Straight away I could see something clinging to the oil in the teeth of the contrite wheel. You can see it in the photo on the head of the needle. There is a coating of oil on almost everything with fibres stuck in it. It needs a good clean but I'll have to work around the barrel as unfortunately I don't have anyway of stripping it and reassembling. Shall I carefully take the platform apart now?

[oldhippy]

Yes you can do that. Way to much oil all that I see needs to be cleaned away.

[watchweasol]

Hi Dave  looks like its been sprayed with oil   all the best 

[Davey57]

Morning all,

I've taken the platform apart and found something that doesn't look terribly good. I'll let you see the photos and await your verdict. 

[oldhippy]

Some fool has tried to close the hole with a staking punch why those horrid file marks beats me. I would check the pivot for wear making sure it is in good condition it needs to be smooth and should be burnished, re-bush the hole because of what has been done no way is that hole the same size as the pivot right through the hole. I cannot judge the depth of those file marks but be careful if you try to remove them you do not want to remove very much martial as it will cause to much end shake. If the clock is not yours I would take photos of the bad work and show them to the owner and explain it wasn't you. 

[watchweasol]

Hi Dave   Iam at a loss as to why some one has been at it with a file, Has it been Bushed and re drilled and filed or as OH suggested the hole closed  because if so its a bloody mess of a job ? can you post a few more pics of the pallet/escape wheel bridge, side on and a close up from top and bottom.  The only recourse is as OH said cleaning up and re bushing. But before that I would suggest you do as OH mentioned and photograph it and show it to the owner ans seek his judgement on what to do next.  All the best

[Davey57]

Not pretty is it?  I'll ask my friend how he feels about it. I can't undertake a repair such as this. I 'm not sure if he will want to shell out any more money on it to have it repaired elsewhere as he's already paid quite a bit of money for what you see and it's been back to the repairer twice. I Don't know, I mean it was running and maybe with all the oil and gunk cleaned away it might do better. Not the way it deserves to be but it's up to my buddy I suppose. I'll let you know what he thinks. Meanwhile, more pics as requested. Thanks for all your advice(s)

Dave

[oldhippy]

I would be inclined to say to the person to take it back again and mention that he has had another clock repairer to look at it and he was horrified to find such disgusting work which was pointed out to him and why didn't they tell him the clock had had some terrible repairs done to the platform escapement.  

[watchweasol]

cHi Dave  Not bushed but punched, the file marks are probably because the metal was raised. Definitley needs re bushing now and the cock cleaning up abit.  I should take OH's advice and take it back to the butcher and get him to do a proper job. I wouldent do that to a cheap alarm clock       cheers