Movado Kingmatic running fast

[quantieme]

Hi All, i have this Movado Kingmatic which when i got it was running fast at + 500 seconds with the regulator set as far over on retard as it could go, it was filthy dirty so i have cleaned and serviced it demagnetised it and that has got it down to +344 to +380, so is there a way of correcting this? the balance spring looks good although i see the beat error is up but i have had worse but always been able to adjust them but with this there is no more adjustment any advice greatly appreciated.

thanks tony

apologies to moderator but i originally posted this on the wrong forum sorry.

[jdm]

19 minutes ago, quantieme said:

 the balance spring looks good

With the index so close to the stud it can't be good. Bring it back in the middle, then check that the HS is regular in shape, a dog leg is formed, the spring is well in between regulator pins, and isn't touching anywhere.

And if you don't know the watch history it could be that someone fitted whatever hairsping or balance they could get,  then found that it wasn't right, and gave it up.

[Marc]

I'm wondering if this is a beat rate error. I could be wrong but I have a nagging feeling that some of the movements used in Kingmatics were actually 36000bph movements, your timegrapher is showing 18000bph.

Can you tell us the caliber number?

Did you set the rate on your TG manually or did it set automatically?

How is the time keeping off the TG?

[Nucejoe]

Is it a subsecomd?

 

 

[KarlvonKoln]

Marc and jdm mentioned the two things I was thinking.

As jdm stated, someone may have installed an identical but incorrect hairspring.  That happened to me recently with one I was baffled by.  

And as Marc stated, you could be looking at a reading based on an incorrect BPH.  Me, I would put the regulator back at center, set it to the second by the most accurate clock I had, and let it run for a day or two.  Maybe three if need be.  That should tell you something.  Who knows?  Maybe if there is an actual variation, it might fall within range of the regulator. 

[Nucejoe]

 No terminal curve is shaped on the coil, another indication that Marc is very likely to have nailed the issue. 

There is hardly any more space for longer hairspring. 

When a piece of the spring end breaks, some people just attach what is left of the spring to the stud and sell the movement on ebay.

Unfortunate its an anular balance so weight can be added to it to slow the oscilator.

Unless the spring is fouling itself, sticking which could be intermitent, or rubbing, there is not much chance this spring would work. 

I hope I am wrong and with the help of you Gentleman this thing gets regulated. 

Regs

[jdm]

I don't know anything about Kingsmatics but I really don't think the machine can mistake a 10Hz beat for a 5 Hz one, albeit when running fast  "just" 8 minutes a day. If it is a 36000 bph then by the shown rate  it would be running slow about 12 hours a day!

The possible bph rates in autodetection mode are 12000, 14400, 18000, 19800, 21600, 25200, 28800, 36000 and 43200. I suppose that with it could happen that a value next to the actual is show, but not one twice or half of it.

[Marc]

1 minute ago, jdm said:

I don't know anything about Kingsmatics but I really don't think the machine can mistake a 10Hz bph movement.t for  a 5 Hz, albeit when running fast  "just" 8 minutes a day. If it is a 36000 bph then by the shown rate  it would be running slow about 12 hours a day!

The possible bph rates in autodetection mode are 12000, 14400, 18000, 19800, 21600, 25200, 28800, 36000 and 43200. I suppose that with it could happen that a value next to the actual is show, but not one twice or half of it.

Which is why I asked if the rate was manually set or auto detected. Manually you can set any of the available rates irrespective of what the movement is actually running at. Also we shouldn't rule out the possibility that the machine is faulty, or that the signal has some characteristic that can confuse the machine. Admittedly unlikely but it's good to cover all bases

[jdm]

2 minutes ago, Marc said:

Which is why I asked if the rate was manually set or auto detected. 

Auto I'd say, I still have to see anyone which has entered the manual beat rate menu for any purpose but curiosity.

I also think that a broken and repinned hairspring causes more than +350 spd.

[Nucejoe]

8 hours ago, jdm said:

I don't know anything about Kingsmatics.

I have a vintage auto kingmatic powered by AS movement. 

Did Movado make a subsecond in-house 36000 beater?   

 

[quantieme]

15 hours ago, Marc said:

I'm wondering if this is a beat rate error. I could be wrong but I have a nagging feeling that some of the movements used in Kingmatics were actually 36000bph movements, your timegrapher is showing 18000bph.

Can you tell us the caliber number?

Did you set the rate on your TG manually or did it set automatically?

How is the time keeping off the TG?

TG was set automatically cal is 438

[quantieme]

14 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Is it a subsecomd?

 

 

it is centre seconds

[quantieme]

13 hours ago, KarlvonKoln said:

Marc and jdm mentioned the two things I was thinking.

As jdm stated, someone may have installed an identical but incorrect hairspring.  That happened to me recently with one I was baffled by.  

And as Marc stated, you could be looking at a reading based on an incorrect BPH.  Me, I would put the regulator back at center, set it to the second by the most accurate clock I had, and let it run for a day or two.  Maybe three if need be.  That should tell you something.  Who knows?  Maybe if there is an actual variation, it might fall within range of the regulator. 

yes, i was wondering about the hair spring, it looks quite thick to me, i think i will re dial it put the hands on and do what you have said. i think it has been bodged together, the crown was too big for the stem thread and had been glued on and the crystal was completely wrong and even had a tension ring in it which it should not have had.

[quantieme]

15 hours ago, Marc said:

I'm wondering if this is a beat rate error. I could be wrong but I have a nagging feeling that some of the movements used in Kingmatics were actually 36000bph movements, your timegrapher is showing 18000bph.

Can you tell us the caliber number?

Did you set the rate on your TG manually or did it set automatically?

How is the time keeping off the TG?

it was set automatically, i have not checked the timing off of the TG but i am going to do that today and let it run over the week end.