Balance staff remover: K&D 50

[arron]

Hello,

I hope everyone is doing well.  I've been searching the market for a k&d balance staff remover tool to use with my staking set.  The K&D 50 type comes in different sizes depending on the gap between the goose neck of the staking set and its table (the gap on mine is 11/16 inch).  Reading the k&d instructions my staking set calls for a 3/4 inch k&d 50 tool.  I've not found a 3/4 on ebay.  I have found a 5/8 inch, so I'm wondering if the the 5/8 inch would work--that must depend on how far out the knob unscrews (and heightens) to fit tight inside the gap.  Or might the next size up work.   Does anyone know?  Thank you.

[Graziano]

Hi Arron, I use the kd 50 on a staking set, I have a boley set that it won't fit under the neck however I have a second set which it does. The height from the plate to the neck is 28mm 

It works perfectly. 

Hope this helps you 

Graziano 

[arron]

Graziano,

Thanks for taking the time.  i think i'm either having cognitive issues or my eyesight is getting way bad :), but the measurements i gave were not correct.  i used my digital calipers this time and a measurement of 27 mm or roughly 1 inch.  so according to the chart i would need a kd 50 model 3/4 inch or 7/8 inch.  i don't know where they get those measurements; is it from the top to bottom with the top screwed all the way down?    do you know which is your model; it's often times printed on the front of the original box if you have it.  would you mind measuring from the top to the bottom with the top screwed all the way down.  that way i'll have some base for comparison when shopping online.  have a nice day.

[AshF]

In case this helps you, I have the 7/8" size.

Screwed down = 22.23 mm

Screwed out = 29.73

 

[arron]

oh, yes it does.  and i'm glad i asked because any shorter (for example the 3/4" size) and it would be too short.  so i'll wait to find the 7/8 size, or possibly the 1".  thanks and take care.

[KarlvonKoln]

I was looking for one also.  Is there a video showing how these are to be properly used?

[arron]

i believe jd richard and bunnspecial have videos.  there's another guy too but i'm not finding it.

 

 

[KarlvonKoln]

Thanks Arron!

[jdkk]

If the hold down screw part is too short you can stack small washers on top of it.

[LittleWatchShop]

Well, this thread solved a mystery for me.  I have posted about my Tri-Duty staking set before w/r to using it on a lathe.

I had noticed the staff-remover tool before, but knew it was to short to work on my other staking set.  No wonder...it is designed to fit this try-duty set.  It comes with the unique stakes that fit into the adjuster.

This is great!  I have done three staff replacements so far...with my other staking set.  This discovery should remove any error to the process.

[Malocchio]

I have this 50b in size 3/4 inch. I was wondering if the part A in the picture is same in all sizes and height of B varies or is the threaded part in A different height in every size option? I might want to get the K&D 50 for pocket watches too but the smaller sizes seem pretty rare. My Favorite has a clearance of 22,7 mm. It would help if I could just buy some wrong size and use the B I already have.

 

[praezis]

A remark to all users and seekers:
This tool cannot avoid distorting and damaging of the hole when punching the staff out.

Frank

[mikepilk]

2 hours ago, praezis said:

A remark to all users and seekers:
This tool cannot avoid distorting and damaging of the hole when punching the staff out.

Frank

But for those of us home hobbyists without the space for a lathe, it is an acceptable option.

It's no different from using a Platax tool, as Mark demonstrates here : (5min)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIQvAm4GC5U&t=992s

From looking under the microscope, I haven't seen any noticeable distortion or damage. 

To quote "Fried" :

Lathe method :
"This method of removing riveted staffs is recognised as the safest and will not distort or damage the balance".

Staff Extractor :
"Some watchmakers use a staff extractor to remove riveted staffs. This method, though not as good as cutting off the hub, is better than just knocking out the staff without any support for the balance arms". 

Edited November 9, 2022 by mikepilk

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, praezis said:

A remark to all users and seekers:
This tool cannot avoid distorting and damaging of the hole when punching the staff out.

Frank

Hiya Frank. Would you say this basically applies to all mthods of using a staking tool to remove the staff ? and best practice would be to cut away the rivet rather than break it out through the balance wheel hole.

[dadistic]

Elgin's grooved balance staff was made so that it could be knocked out with a punch. Even still, turning off the hub is probably better if you have a lathe and the skill to avoid cutting in to the balance wheel. 

[praezis]

58 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hiya Frank. Would you say this basically applies to all mthods of using a staking tool to remove the staff ? and best practice would be to cut away the rivet rather than break it out through the balance wheel hole.

Yes!

That tool(s) avoid bending the balance spoke only, but do not prevent the hole from damage.
- by forcing the thicker, distorted part of the staff (from rivetting) through the hole
- by unsufficient support:

The issue was already discussed here several times.

Frank

Edited November 9, 2022 by praezis

[mikepilk]

Kalle Slaap at Chronoglide doesn't use any support - just punches it out with a staking set  (see from 4 min)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRj8Eb97HJo&t=933s

And Ashton, at Precision Horology, says that the way he was trained at Rolex, was to push it out with a jewelling tool, again no support : (see from 6m 30sec)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8EtGKDg8Qs

If it's good enough for Rolex ....

 

 

[LittleWatchShop]

2 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Kalle Slaap at Chronoglide doesn't use any support - just punches it out with a staking set  (see from 4 min)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRj8Eb97HJo&t=933s

And Ashton, at Precision Horology, says that the way he was trained at Rolex, was to push it out with a jewelling tool, again no support : (see from 6m 30sec)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8EtGKDg8Qs

If it's good enough for Rolex ....

 

 

My staking/jeweling class a couple of weekends ago was taught by a Rolex certified watchmaker.  Guess what?  He taught us to punch them out.  The few staff replacements that I have done...I have done it with the lathe and sans the lathe.  So... I dunno.  What I do next time will depend on my mood.

[mikepilk]

4 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

My staking/jeweling class a couple of weekends ago was taught by a Rolex certified watchmaker.  Guess what?  He taught us to punch them out.  The few staff replacements that I have done...I have done it with the lathe and sans the lathe.  So... I dunno.  What I do next time will depend on my mood.

Was the balance arms supported when you punched them, or was it just free like in Kalle's vid ? 

[LittleWatchShop]

1 minute ago, mikepilk said:

Was the balance arms supported when you punched them, or was it just free like in Kalle's vid

Supported.  We used a tool which I do not have.  It was a punch with wings that had a punch inside.  You pressed the outer shell punch down to secure the balances arms and then you punched out the staff with the inner punch.  Not sure what that tool is called.  I do have the KD tool that fits on my staking set and I think I used it once or twice.

[praezis]

3 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Not sure what that tool is called

It is the „Unruhmax“, probably German origin (my drawing showed part of it. 

Mr. Slaap is someone, I would never hand over a valuable watch for repair. It makes sense that his videos adress and are famous with amateurs.

Just today his videos were warmly recommended by 2 members in a German watch/clock repair forum that I attend frequently. I watched a video about chaging balance staffs, but was embarrassed after few minutes and quit.
Damaging balances is easy and no amateur will need a video to do this! 

Experienced fellow watchmakers‘ judgement was exactly the same.

Sorry,
Frank

Edited November 9, 2022 by praezis

[LittleWatchShop]

20 minutes ago, praezis said:

It is the „Unruhmax“, probably German origin (my drawing showed part of it. 

Mr. Slaap is someone, I would never hand over a valuable watch for repair. It makes sense that his videos adress and are famous with amateurs.

Just today his videos were warmly recommended by 2 members in a German watch/clock repair forum that I attend frequently. I watched a video about chaging balance staffs, but was embarrassed after few minutes and quit.
Damaging balances is easy and no amateur will need a video to do this! 

Experienced fellow watchmakers‘ judgement was exactly the same.

Sorry,
Frank

Certain subjects should just not be broached

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, praezis said:

It is the „Unruhmax“, probably German origin (my drawing showed part of it. 

Mr. Slaap is someone, I would never hand over a valuable watch for repair. It makes sense that his videos adress and are famous with amateurs.

Just today his videos were warmly recommended by 2 members in a German watch/clock repair forum that I attend frequently. I watched a video about chaging balance staffs, but was embarrassed after few minutes and quit.
Damaging balances is easy and no amateur will need a video to do this! 

Experienced fellow watchmakers‘ judgement was exactly the same.

Sorry,
Frank

 

[ifibrin]

11 hours ago, praezis said:

Yes!

That tool(s) avoid bending the balance spoke only, but do not prevent the hole from damage.

I agree with @praezis that balance staff removal should only be attempted in a lathe. However, many/some other watchmakers who are also fairly well experienced are certain that punching out a balance staff while supporting the balance wheel is acceptable (at least if done only once), and will not distort the balance wheel hole. 
 

This debate over balance staff removal has continued for a very long time, and like choice of lubrication, is unlikely to ever end. People over at the NAWCC forum have even gone to the extent of measuring the size of the hole in the balance wheel AFTER the balance staff has been punched out. Proponents of removal punching out the balance staff have claimed that it is only improper punching out of the balance staff that distorts the hole. 
 

However, the flange of the rivet which secures the balance staff on the balance wheel still has to pass through the hole when the balance staff is punched out. While a single balance staff punched out once (done properly) should not distort the hole much, it’s much safer to remove the balance staff using a lathe.

This is similar to the question of whether to use  a reamer in a jeweling tool to enlarge a hole in the main plate: it’s far better to mount the main plate on a lathe and optically center the hole to be enlarged. This avoids hole drift, especially if the hole is in a part of the main plate of uneven thickness.

Edited November 10, 2022 by ifibrin

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, ifibrin said:

I agree with @praezis that balance staff removal should only be attempted in a lathe. However, many/some other watchmakers who are also fairly well experienced are certain that punching out a balance staff while supporting the balance wheel is acceptable (at least if done only once), and will not distort the balance wheel hole. 
 

This debate over balance staff removal has continued for a very long time, and like choice of lubrication, is unlikely to ever end. People over at the NAWCC forum have even gone to the extent of measuring the size of the hole in the balance wheel AFTER the balance staff has been punched out. Proponents of removal punching out the balance staff have claimed that it is only improper punching out of the balance staff that distorts the hole. 
 

However, the flange of the rivet which secures the balance staff on the balance wheel still has to pass through the hole when the balance staff is punched out. While a single balance staff punched out once (done properly) should not distort the hole much, it’s much safer to remove the balance staff using a lathe.

This is similar to the question of whether to use  a reamer in a jeweling tool to enlarge a hole in the main plate: it’s far better to mount the main plate on a lathe and optically center the hole to be enlarged. This avoids hole drift, especially if the hole is in a part of the main plate of uneven thickness.

I dont think anyone can disagree with that theory. Punching a folded rim of a hardened steel staff through a hole of a weaker or even an equivalent strength material must leave an element of damage/change to that hole. How much damage ? Thats going to vary on the skill and technique of the repairer, the thickness of the staff rivet being punched out and the varying strength's of the two materials being impacted. That being said that practice should still  continue to the best of the ability for those of us with no other option. Not everyone has the luxury of a lathe if they did then this discussion might not be here. ( apart from those of us that just like to argue )

Edited November 10, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches