The Lure of eBay

[NewToWatches]

Recently added member, so greetings.  I was wondering if the forum had any preferred eBay sellers, or sellers in general, of mid-century American and Japanese wristwatches.  Here's my short story.

I recently started thinking about putting together a small collection of wristwatches.  Over a relatively short span, I purchased a Clinton, a Bulova Sea King, an Elgin, and a Waltham.  None of these is in perfect cosmetic shape, but all had reasonably nice faces and hands, and were advertised as keeping good time.  I really do like that mid-Century aesthetic, and if I could find a reasonably priced Hamilton Thin-O-Matic, I would be a very happy man.  Here's the thing:  I have put each on a Timegrapher and none of them has a particularly good amplitude or beat error, even though they do run.  What this tells me is that the watches, as pretty as they are, probably need service right now just to make sure they are clean and properly lubricated.

I have the ambition to do this myself, eventually.  Actually it was watching Mark's YouTube videos that made me think that was possible.  But this post is about something different.  I wonder how you all approach buying watches so that you can be sure they don't need an immediate service.  Perhaps this is just always a risk with older watches.  Or perhaps the market works in such a way that modestly priced watches just aren't worth having a third party service prior to sale, as the seller could never recoup both the cost of the piece and the service on a sale. 

At any rate, I'd like to hear theories and practices: what has worked for you all as a purchase strategy so that not every new-to-you watch is just another addition to your list of projects to get to one day.

Edited December 10, 2020 by NewToWatches

[AdamC]

Hello,

Welcome to WRT. Interesting question, and here’s how I acquire my watches but with a different kind of objective/acceptance in mind.

I too am attracted to vintage watches anywhere from the 1920’s up to the 1960’s. also some of the ornate silver pocket watches up to the 1920’s.

Ebay has always been my first port of call, generally for the vastness of timepieces available and sometimes some real bargains to be had. However, unless a watch is claimed to have had a service, I’ll always accept that it’s likely to need one, and for me, I actually get a kick out of buying some of the tattiest looking watches (with a vision of their potential) and restoring them back to glory. These have been some of the cheapest to buy and highest price returned when selling on (but not always). Btw, I’m self taught with the help of Mark’s videos and the wonderful experts on this forum.

I guess in answer to your specific question, you’d be looking for those advertised as keeping excellent time and either a mention of a service in the past 2-3 years or evidence of (as you’ve already mentioned), a healthy amplitude on the timegrapher (rare advert content but sometimes there). Realistically though, unless I had proof of a service I’d assume they need one.

You may also stumble upon the likes of sellers like me who are hobbyists and whose main satisfaction is from restoring/servicing watches and then selling on for a price enough to cover the cost of parts and a small reward for their time and cost of consumables. The evidence I give on eBay are photos of the watch in various stages of being serviced and always one of the all disassembled parts in the tray. Therefore, looking for “Serviced” in the search title may well find you what you’re looking for. Modestly priced for me may be different for others! For example, I sometimes buy something for £25, restore/service, and sell on for £75 after replacing the mainspring and fitting a new crystal and strap (even then with attempts from buyers to knock my price down!). These are the watches you mention that would usually be uneconomic to repair (certainly on the High Street). For the record, I’m not trying to promote my watch sales here and neither will I reveal my eBay identity or accept servicing requests . I’m merely  suggesting that there are serviced watches out there to be had at very reasonable prices in answer to the question. An example of a before/after shot of a recent restoration is shown in the photos (already sold). The watch cost me £23 in its sorry non-working condition!

[Marc]

The surest way to minimise the risk that your new acquisition doesn't need servicing straight away is to buy brand new.

3 hours ago, NewToWatches said:

modestly priced watches just aren't worth having a third party service prior to sale

This is pretty well the case, particularly with the low prices that eBay can end up yielding for the less exotic end of the range. If you buy from a reputable dealer and get some kind of a warranty then you have some recourse if the watch isn't as described, but that's not so easy with eBay.

The problem with the eBay is one of credibility. Anyone can say that the watch that they are selling is "recently serviced", which is a really ambiguous statement. Does "recently" mean in the last 6 days? 6 months? 6 years? And by "serviced" do they mean a quick buffing of the case and crystal and new gaskets? or are we talking about a full strip down of the movement, proper component level cleaning, inspection, adjustment or replacement, re-lube, regulate, etc...

If I sell a watch on eBay it will almost certainly be serviced and stated as such but this has nothing to do with trying to get a higher price to recoup the cost of servicing. The reason that I buy a watch in the first place is usually because it isn't running and I want to fix it, which invariably requires a full service as described above. I do this myself so the costs are limited to any replacement parts. I photograph the process and post a walk through on a blog for the world to see, and when I state in an eBay listing that the watch has been serviced I post a link to my blog so that potential buyers can see what work I have done. The improvement in the selling price usually only just covers the cost of the replacement parts compared to selling in the same cosmetic condition without any claims of servicing. Sad but true. Where I do get a benefit is that quite often the buyers will be people with a collection of moderate value watches which are in need of servicing but they can't justify the cost of "professional" servicing. If the watch that they buy from me provides them with sufficient confidence then I may get approached for servicing work on the other watches in their collection.

If you want to build a collection of modest value mid-century pieces that you can be confident are in good running condition without incurring unrecoverable costs your best bet is to either do the servicing yourself, or to find someone who will do the work for you at a price you are happy with.

Welcome to the best place on the WWW to learn how to go about doing it yourself

[clockboy]

Buying from eBay IMO is not a lucrative as it used to be. No real bargains anymore with clock and watch prices way above their value. My cheeky bids never seem to be successful. I suspect it has happened since the introduction of bidding software.

Also I have noticed used tools often sell for more than purchasing new

[wls1971]

You have to realise how Ebay is being used by sellers over the last few years I have come to the conclusion that a very large majority of sellers are buying at auction houses and then listing straight to Ebay, in most cases the speed in which the items go from auction house to Ebay would not allow any testing or servicing to take place, this is particularly true of clocks, I have attended auctions in person and bid online and have seen clocks in which I was the under bidder appear on Ebay the same day.

I have bought clocks that the seller has claimed has been serviced when quite clearly they have not been, a lot of sellers will put up descriptions that claim a trained watchmaker/ clockmaker has inspected the clock/watch and it is in sound condition, they will use any B/S they can to make what they are selling more attractive to buyers.

In short " You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy"

This may be a pretty grim assessment but if you keep that thought at the front of your mind with every listing you look at you wont go far wrong.

There are still good bargains to be had but you have to be vigilant.

[JohnR725]

52 minutes ago, clockboy said:

Buying from eBay IMO is not a lucrative as it used to be. No real bargains anymore with clock and watch prices way above their value.

I was thinking typically I'm not looking for a complete watches and maybe that is because they do seem expensive. Typically now at least for watches I'm looking for spare parts. Lately have noticed usually in the auctions that I forgot about so I never bid that the price of watch parts at least some of them seem quite decent right now in fact they seem lower than they should be?

53 minutes ago, clockboy said:

Also I have noticed used tools often sell for more than purchasing new

This I definitely agree with. A unfortunate problem with watch tools are they can look vintage. Oh wait that's probably because some of Our tools haven't changed in the last hundred years.  So unfortunately like everything else you do need to look at multiple sources of pricing to avoid getting ripped off.

7 hours ago, NewToWatches said:

Recently added member, so greetings.  I was wondering if the forum had any preferred eBay sellers, or sellers in general, of mid-century American and Japanese wristwatches. 

Unfortunately thanks to the current world situation ordering online seems to be the way the world is going.  Before that one of the places that I used to pick up tools typically sometimes watches was by going to regional meetings of the nawcc. They also had chapter meetings but I didn't go to those until much later on. Unfortunately all of that has been canceled but maybe I'll start back up again. They do tend to have chapters all over the place a lot of the chapters are doing assume meetings. I have a link so you can look for perhaps there's a chapter in your neck of the woods?

 

https://www.nawcc.org/local-chapters/?chapter=vermont&submit=Search

[AdamC]

5 hours ago, Marc said:

When I state in an eBay listing that the watch has been serviced I post a link to my blog so that potential buyers can see what work I have done. The improvement in the selling price usually only just covers the cost of the replacement parts compared to selling in the same cosmetic condition without any claims of servicing. Sad but true.

The blog link to an eBay listing sounds a great idea Marc. Just took a look and very impressed with the detail.

I have to agree with the fact that the resale price many times just barely covers the cost of the original purchase and the replacement parts, and there are occasions where I’ve ended up selling at a loss (especially on using auction listings). So to mitigate, I now keep a spreadsheet, which includes the cost (inc postage) of the purchased watch and the cost of the parts to repair. It’s sometimes comes to not getting carried away on paying out say £30 on parts for a watch bought for £30 that may only fetch £50 or less! But by keeping the spreadsheet, I keep track of costs and ensure I don’t go losing lots of money when I sell (especially when someone tries to knock me down further on a Buy Now). Nerdy I know, but effective!

[clockboy]

There was a time when I could purchase a non running clock fix/ service it and re- sell for a profit. At a local auction house occasionally I could pick up a French slate clock for £25 but even that source has become to costly. I suspect they are being put on eBay for unsuspecting buyers to purchase

[NewToWatches]

Thank you for all the replies.  Very insightful and helpful.   A follow-on question:  my frame of reference for finely made mechanical objects is cameras.  In Japan, for instance, for cameras there is (generally) a very different attitude towards used equipment vs. new, and a robust culture of collectors who are very focussed on the cosmetic condition of cameras.  Often Japanese eBay sellers are selling cameras that might find value in the US market, but but which might be unfit for collectors in the Japanese camera market.   So: is there a similar dynamic in the watch world? For instance, it seems like the Seikos from the 1960's I have seen listed from Japanese sellers seem in better condition cosmetically than the same models from US sellers.  Or is this just confirmation bias on my part, and my experience with cameras doesn't really translate?  It does seem like international purchases add a degree of risk and expense, as even if one has the right to return a watch, the shipping itself might make it prohibitive to do so. 

[wls1971]

Yes it was certainly the case that used quality watches in Japan where cheaper than in the U.K but by the time V.A.T and duty are added when imported any savings dissipate and it just doesn't make sense to import them.

there is a specialist used watch auction site in Japan "Timespeaks" which when it started was very cheap but now it has become popular its a waste of time.

[jdm]

2 hours ago, NewToWatches said:

For instance, it seems like the Seikos from the 1960's I have seen listed from Japanese sellers seem in better condition cosmetically than the same models from US sellers. 

If you like these and any other fine Japanese item, no doubt the best place to purchase is from Japan - but certainly not on Ebay. Some sellers specialize serviced and guaranteed watches.  Buying from US you pay no import duties up to a substantial amount. The other major variable is the exchange rate, at this time not very favorable. But if one wants a  certain something and want it now, that will make no difference.

[Tudor]

When I assess a watch for potential purchase, I want to see that it runs. It does not have to be "within COSC specs" or anything else- I just want to know it can run 24 hours without intervention.

I do that, because it tells me the parts are intact. It is not difficult to get a "good looking" watch that has serious internal problems. If it's a 2824 or something like that, it's not a big deal at all, and you buy strictly on cosmetics. Movements are plentiful, as are their parts.

But often, the older watches have movements without a strong aftermarket support, and unless you know that particular movement, chances are that it has the SAME problem as every other such movement available, rendering it very difficult to repair, or perhaps not repairable, or not cost effective to repair (unless you LOVE it) because you have to manufacture the elusive part.

ALWAYS buy the seller, not the product. Keep that in mind- read feedback from other purchasers; check their feedback; check how long they've been on eBay etc. Due Diligence prior to purchase, will avoid (possibly expensive) disappointment, if not outright fraud.