Vintage Elgin movement running FAST!

[rduckwor]

A vintage Elgin 15/0, Gr 559.  I took it down, cleaned and lubricated it and it is gaining 15 minutes/24 hours.  I have looked at the HS, it appears to be perfect, clean, flat, not magnetized (de-magged the movement X 3 already), and in position between the regulator pins.  Not hung on the center wheel.  Correct mainspring, and balance is not knocking.    I do not remember amplitude, but IIRC, it was above 22 which is O.K. by me with the movement.  Please give me some ideas as to how to correct this.  It doesn't seem like there are enough timing washers in the world to slow this down!

 

Thanks,

RMD

[saswatch88]

1 hour ago, rduckwor said:

A vintage Elgin 15/0, Gr 559.  I took it down, cleaned and lubricated it and it is gaining 15 minutes/24 hours.  I have looked at the HS, it appears to be perfect, clean, flat, not magnetized (de-magged the movement X 3 already), and in position between the regulator pins.  Not hung on the center wheel.  Correct mainspring, and balance is not knocking.    I do not remember amplitude, but IIRC, it was above 22 which is O.K. by me with the movement.  Please give me some ideas as to how to correct this.  It doesn't seem like there are enough timing washers in the world to slow this down!

 

Thanks,

RMD

Did you put the hairspring under high enough magnification to see if any of the coils are sticking as its vibrating? Is hairspring also centered over the pivot, one side of the coils should not expand/contract any wider/narrow than the opposite side. Maybe dull or misshapen balance pivot causing high friction, did you get a look at the balance staff under a microscope. Get the amplitude again, if its low then these could be your issues since everything else checks out according to your post.

[Chopin]

Have you checked the hairspring both while working and in idle state ? Usually this is a HS issue... If it was demagnetized it would have gained far more than a few minutes...

[rduckwor]

I looked at the balance/pivots/HS under the scope last night and will try to post pictures today.  The HS is as perfect as any I have seen.  The upper and lower pivots were straight and unfortunately flat on the tips.  I will have to look at some other Elgin Balances to see if this is normal for their manufacturing processes.

Thanks,

RMD

[rduckwor]

Hairspring, lower, and upper balance pivots.  I see nothing here.  I'm wondering if the HS was shortened by a previous actor.  Movement came as a non-runner.

 

Thanks,

RMD

[AndyHull]

What is the beat error ?

What is the amplitude ?

Do you have a time graph trace ?

[saswatch88]

5 hours ago, rduckwor said:

I looked at the balance/pivots/HS under the scope last night and will try to post pictures today.  The HS is as perfect as any I have seen.  The upper and lower pivots were straight and unfortunately flat on the tips.  I will have to look at some other Elgin Balances to see if this is normal for their manufacturing processes.

Thanks,

RMD

The American movements used flat pivots Swiss used concave pivots during the time. 559 guessing its somewhere in the mid-late 40s. The outer coil looks a little off to me did you check end/side shakes? From the pics the pivots seem fine but cant be too sure, they are not clear enough and would really need a higher magnification. When its running put finger pressure on the balance cock, with light pressure it should not stop the balance. If it does then end shakes is too small, if you press hard it should stop the balance if it doesn’t then you have too much side/end shakes.. This will tell you if any of the 2 balance staff pivots have issues, bent worn down too much etc. or even cracked balance jewels. You may be able to remedy with jewel pushing, adding spacers to balance cock, if you don’t have to know how to replace the staff. But a time trace would really be nice too.

Edited January 6, 2020 by saswatch88

[rduckwor]

This will be on hold for a while.  I pinged away the stud screw and don't have any yet in my part box.  Thanks and back when I get it assembled and running.

 

RMD

[Nucejoe]

A rather good LOT of NOS pocket watch hairsprings is on sale at ebay now, bereguet overcoils. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LARGE-LOT-OF-NOS-ANTIQUE-ELGIN-POCKET-WATCH-MOVEMENT-HAIRSPRINGS-PARTS-REPAIR/392598089473?hash=item5b68ab6f01:g:74cAAOSwYS5d~QsB

 Your balance wheel looks undisturbed , should you take the other route ,to vibrate with longer HS, you can built a nicer looking balance complete. 

Hope this helps.

[vinn3]

the outboard spring coil looks to be out of place.  ?

[Nucejoe]

6 hours ago, vinn3 said:

the outboard spring coil looks to be out of place.  ?

I think HS dosn't  belong and is incompatible with the balance, it's collet looks unused.