Capped 3rd wheel pivot jewels

[CaptCalvin]

For movements with capped 3rd and escape wheel pivot jewels like Seikos Orients Rolex etc, which oil should the one for 3rd wheel be lubricated with? Only documentation I can find/have access to for such scenario comes from Seiko and they specify oiling the capped pivot with thin oil, but the uncapped dial side pivot with thick oil. Then again they also specify oiling the pallet pivots so I'm a bit unsure how religiously I want to follow their instructions. What is the commonly accepted practice here? Thin oil or thick oil?

[HSL]

In my mind the type of lubrication you use is depending of which kind of force the part is exposed for and its construction.
Thats why I guess you mostly can see thick lubrications in the drive train area where the force is relativly high and the pivots are thicker, while in the escapement the lubrication gets thinner because the force are relativly low and the pivots are mostly thinner.
You could ofcourse use a thin lubrication everywere but it would just be harder to apply and you probably have to service the movement more often since a thinner lubrication is more volatile.
I don't think the use of end caps in the drivetrain makes any difference in the choise of lubrication.

[Delgetti]

Rolex oiling charts say:

Thin oil for balance and escape wheel pivots

No oiling for pallet pivots

Thick oil for the other wheels pivots

[VWatchie]

I don't know, but hopefully, someone here knows what the commonly accepted practice is. I can see that the suggestion to oil the pallet pivots bring doubt to your confidence in the documentation. The only context in which I've heard this being suggested is to combat re-banking by introducing a bit of drag.

Anyway, I'd suggest thin oil, but purely on a gut feeling!

[CaptCalvin]

My gut feeling would be to oil any capped jewel with thin oil too. But then again we are talking about a 3rd wheel pivot and most 3rd wheel pivots are oiled with thick oil. See my dilemma here?

[watchweasol]

Hi I think HSL is right  The viscosity of the lubricant is proportional to the force, Is no good using thick oil in fine pivots and low torque bearings . As mentioned before so I think the advise given is what ought to be followed.

[rduckwor]

I use thicker oil on the center wheel pivots and thin oil elsewhere - capped or not.  Pallet pivots get no oil per general consensus.

 

Good Luck,

RMD

[CaptCalvin]

 

3 hours ago, rduckwor said:

I use thicker oil on the center wheel pivots and thin oil elsewhere - capped or not.  Pallet pivots get no oil per general consensus.

 

Good Luck,

RMD

I thought thick oil is also used on 3rd wheel pivots in most cases?

[Marc]

The link below is to the BHI "Practical Lubrication of Clocks and Watches".

Check out section 3.3 on page 6.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwiBoLzv27njAhV5REEAHaXWACwQFjAAegQIABAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nawcc-index.net%2FArticles%2FBTI-The_Practical_Lubrication_of_Clocks_and_Watches.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2wu5iPDMTbXL-VM1mM53rv

[rduckwor]

4 hours ago, Marc said:

The link below is to the BHI "Practical Lubrication of Clocks and Watches".

Check out section 3.3 on page 6.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwiBoLzv27njAhV5REEAHaXWACwQFjAAegQIABAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nawcc-index.net%2FArticles%2FBTI-The_Practical_Lubrication_of_Clocks_and_Watches.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2wu5iPDMTbXL-VM1mM53rv

Say it all.  Thanks,

 

RMD

[CaptCalvin]

I'm not sure how up to date that guide is. Pretty much every service manual I come across lubes 4th and escape with thin oil but 3rd with thick oil. Even Seiko agrees, showing thick oil being applied to the uncapped side of the 3rd wheel.

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

I'm not sure how up to date that guide is. Pretty much every service manual I come across lubes 4th and escape with thin oil but 3rd with thick oil. Even Seiko agrees, showing thick oil being applied to the uncapped side of the 3rd wheel.

Just noticed that Mark Lovick uses thin oil (Moebius 9010) for the 3rd wheel in his ETA 2824-2 service video (@8:58). This goes against the recommendation of the ETA technical sheet for the 2824-2, but I believe he does so for a reason. If you read this Mark your comment would be appreciated!

While on the topic; what would the effect of using a thick oil be when applied to a pivot where we'd usually apply a thin oil, such as the escape wheel?

 

[CaptCalvin]

2 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Just noticed that Mark Lovick uses thin oil (Moebius 9010) for the 3rd wheel in his ETA 2824-2 service video (@8:58). This goes against the recommendation of the ETA technical sheet for the 2824-2, but I believe he does so for a reason. If you read this Mark your comment would be appreciated!

While on the topic; what would the effect of using a thick oil be when applied to a pivot where we'd usually apply a thin oil, such as the escape wheel?

 

I would imagine decreased amplitude if applied to fourth or escape wheel, but i noticed hardly any difference with the 3rd wheel in most cases so i think thick oil would be the proper lubrication here in most cases. My question is  why would Seiko make the distinction between capped and uncapped jewels? Why on the same wheel apply thick oil on the uncapped end and thin oil on the capped end? Is there some rule against applying thick oil to capped jewels that I haven't heard about?

[jdm]

6 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

My question is  why would Seiko make the distinction between capped and uncapped jewels?

As you said I would't worry too much about what Seiko indicates when it contrasts with professional's best practices. Beside the aforementioned pallet pivots they show to oil one spring finger that contacts plastic, but not another that does the same? Better to spend time in other ways.

[CaptCalvin]

2 hours ago, jdm said:

As you said I would't worry too much about what Seiko indicates when it contrasts with professional's best practices. Beside the aforementioned pallet pivots they show to oil one spring finger that contacts plastic, but not another that does the same? Better to spend time in other ways.

The thing is I don't know what the best practices are in this scenario. Do I apply thick oil to both ends? Do I apply thin oil? Or do what Seiko says and apply thick oil on uncapped end and thin oil on capped end?

[jdm]

1 hour ago, CaptCalvin said:

The thing is I don't know what the best practices are in this scenario.

Plenty of good and detailed advice above, including some from watchmaking school.

[CaptCalvin]

5 minutes ago, jdm said:

Plenty of good and detailed advice above, including some from watchmaking school.

I'm going to roll with applying thin oil to both ends of the 3rd wheel then. But most technical manuals (that I've come across) show use of thick oil on 3rd wheel. Thoughts?

Edited July 17, 2019 by CaptCalvin

[VWatchie]

11 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

I'm going to roll with applying thin oil to both ends of the 3rd wheel then. But most technical manuals (that I've come across) show use of thick oil on 3rd wheel. Thoughts?

I second your decision. There's probably no absolute truth here. My first and so far only ETA 2824-2 that I've serviced ended up with too low amplitude. The reason for this is still under investigation. However, I'm now servicing my second ETA 2824-2 and this time around, unlike the first time, I'm going to use thin oil for the 3rd wheel following the example in the ETA 2824-2 service video that I linked to.

[CaptCalvin]

On 7/18/2019 at 3:39 AM, VWatchie said:

I second your decision. There's probably no absolute truth here. My first and so far only ETA 2824-2 that I've serviced ended up with too low amplitude. The reason for this is still under investigation. However, I'm now servicing my second ETA 2824-2 and this time around, unlike the first time, I'm going to use thin oil for the 3rd wheel following the example in the ETA 2824-2 service video that I linked to.

You're welcome to try though I doubt that's the problem however. I've always used hp1300 on 2824 3rd wheels and never had a problem.

I did just find an Orient service manual for similar but different caliber than the one I'm currently working on and it specifies thin oil for both capped and uncapped 3rd wheel pivots, although I do find these to have markedly lower torque than their Swiss higher beat counterparts so it might indeed be the best choice here.

[jdm]

4 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

You're welcome to try though I doubt that's the problem however. I've always used hp1300 on 2824 3rd wheels and never had a problem.

I don't doubt that it didn't made a problem but the attached service sheet indicates 9010 for the third wheel.

As a general rule HP (High Pressure, is not even really an oil) is used to parts that are driven from turning the crown, or directly by the barrel. All the rest get fine oil.

_C_T_CT_2824-2_FDE_481688_24.pdf

[CaptCalvin]

3 hours ago, jdm said:

I don't doubt that it didn't made a problem but the attached service sheet indicates 9010 for the third wheel.

As a general rule HP (High Pressure, is not even really an oil) is used to parts that are driven from turning the crown, or directly by the barrel. All the rest get fine oil.

_C_T_CT_2824-2_FDE_481688_24.pdf 6.89 MB · 0 downloads

Geez you had me questioning myself there for a moment... but look again:

[jdm]

1 hour ago, CaptCalvin said:

Geez you had me questioning myself there for a moment... but look again:

Good, thanks. I got confused by the use of same color drops with or without circles. Other sheets use circles to indicate quantity, not type. 

[VWatchie]

17 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

You're welcome to try though I doubt that's the problem however. I've always used hp1300 on 2824 3rd wheels and never had a problem.

I did just find an Orient service manual for similar but different caliber than the one I'm currently working on and it specifies thin oil for both capped and uncapped 3rd wheel pivots, although I do find these to have markedly lower torque than their Swiss higher beat counterparts so it might indeed be the best choice here.

I wasn't expecting thin oil for the 3rd on the ETA 2824-2 to make any difference for the amplitude but I found it interesting that thin oil was used in the service video by a seasoned watch repairer, and that's what made me decide to go for thin oil. As I stated in a previous post and as can be seen in your pictures, ETA recommends HP-1300 for the 3rd wheel. The problem with the amplitude was related to the hairspring, hairspring stud and the regulator pins (Thanks @HSL!) , but that is a different topic.

I'm curious; how can you tell and compare wheel torques?

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by VWatchie

[CaptCalvin]

7 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I'm curious; how can you tell and compare wheel torques?

 

Nothing scientific: severity of blistering in fingers when trying to wind the mainspring through ratchet wheel screw.  Can even feel it by winding through the crown. You would expect higher beat movements to have higher torque anyway. 

Edited July 21, 2019 by CaptCalvin