Why has the beat error changed ?

[mikepilk]

Not a problem, but out of curiosity : why has the beat error changed when I haven't removed the hairspring ?

I just fired up this lovely little Revue Cal 59 and it's showing a beat error of 0.7 m/s (DU & DD) - which I'm happy with, especially as the amplitude is 290 deg straight off.

But before I stripped and cleaned it, the beat error was 0.1 m/s. 

The cock has no beat error correction.

I had to remove the balance+hairspring for cleaning, but the stud is triangular and the regulator pin boot is fully closed, so there shouldn't be much difference there.

I was just wondering what could have caused the change in beat error ?

Mike

BTW this is my first Revue movement and I'm very impressed with the quality.

 

[oldhippy]

It’s a high grade movement and very good they are. It could just be down to you servicing it. I know it all sound backwards, might be the oil to much or too little. I would say is one of life’s little mystery’s

[praezis]

Not such a mystery if you know how a TM gets its values...

A tic noise contains 3 or more single pulses, the 1st being the lowest. If too low, it is ignored and the next higher pulse is used instead - and voila, you will get a higher beat error and pleasing high amplitude reading..

Frank

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, praezis said:

Not such a mystery if you know how a TM gets its values...

A tic noise contains 3 or more single pulses, the 1st being the lowest. If too low, it is ignored and the next higher pulse is used instead - and voila, you will get a higher beat error and pleasing high amplitude reading..

Frank

Frank = genius !

I never considered it was the timegrapher. I suppose with everything lubricated, the first pulse could be quieter.

I can see  that the amplitude is high just by looking at the balance, the TM is now showing 300,

Correction .... I just set the lift angle to the correct 58 deg, and the amplitude is reading 340 deg,

So I'm hoping that the timegrapher is wrong or I might get rebanking.

 

Thanks

Edited August 4, 2018 by mikepilk

[oldhippy]

The timing machines back in the 70’s and 80’s are nowhere as good as the ones today.

[nickelsilver]

Even with a good stud like that it's not unusual for the beat error to shift a bit like you observed after removing and replacing the balance.

[clockboy]

The minutest amount of changes made to a watch can make big differences to it's performance. I always check a watches performance before and after a service. It is always different after the service including the beat. 

[mikepilk]

17 hours ago, oldhippy said:

 

The timing machines back in the 70’s and 80’s are nowhere as good as the ones today.

I'm using a Weishi Timegrapher 1000. 

The movement is especially quiet, but I don't seem to be getting any rebanking. I  just put it back together so I'll wear it for a couple of days and see how it goes.

The quality of this watch has so impressed me - the way the bridges and dial fit, beautiful .

I'll be looking out for more.

What do you rate as 'quality movements' ?

Of my own watches , Omega's from the 50's and 60's (I have Cals 565, 613, 620, 625) seem good - I prefer them to the later 1000 series which seem a bit flimsy in comparision. I also have a couple of Longines, Cal 23Z and 284 which impressed me. What's the next level up ?

 

[oldhippy]

My Grandfather had a Vertex watch. When he died, it was left to me. I lent it at one time working as a watch/clock maker and never had it returned. The person gave a false number and address.

[JohnR725]

How do you know that the lift angle is 58°? I'm looking at something that indicates it's 48°?

Then the Chinese 1000 timing machine is quite decent I doubt it's missing the first part of the waveform. Usually what the problem with waveform pickups on the Chinese machine are super low amplitude. The super low amplitude the middle part of the waveform looks like the ending part you get a really nice looking amplitude and visually the balance wheels motion totally sucks.

It really doesn't take that much to change the Beat in the watch. For instance put the watch on the timing machine in one of the dial positions note the beat. Then rotate to a pendant position try several of them notice how the beat changes? Gravity is pulling the hairspring down it's causing a very tiny rotation of the balance wheel shows up as a beat error. Remove the balance wheel from the bridge and any distortion of the spring will show up as something. Even though the stud is a nice shape there is a little bit a play in the hole This means you're always going to have a little bit a movement here that's will cause changes.

If you really want to see spectacular before and after changes in timing do an American pocket watch. The cleaning machine tends to loosen up the timing screws and I have a suspicion the drying temperature isn't good for the bimetallic balance wheel. There is usually quite interesting timing differences before and after on the older watches.

[mikepilk]

37 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

How do you know that the lift angle is 58°? I'm looking at something that indicates it's 48°?

Then the Chinese 1000 timing machine is quite decent I doubt it's missing the first part of the waveform. Usually what the problem with waveform pickups on the Chinese machine are super low amplitude. The super low amplitude the middle part of the waveform looks like the ending part you get a really nice looking amplitude and visually the balance wheels motion totally sucks.

It really doesn't take that much to change the Beat in the watch. For instance put the watch on the timing machine in one of the dial positions note the beat. Then rotate to a pendant position try several of them notice how the beat changes? Gravity is pulling the hairspring down it's causing a very tiny rotation of the balance wheel shows up as a beat error. Remove the balance wheel from the bridge and any distortion of the spring will show up as something. Even though the stud is a nice shape there is a little bit a play in the hole This means you're always going to have a little bit a movement here that's will cause changes.

If you really want to see spectacular before and after changes in timing do an American pocket watch. The cleaning machine tends to loosen up the timing screws and I have a suspicion the drying temperature isn't good for the bimetallic balance wheel. There is usually quite interesting timing differences before and after on the older watches.

My mistake John - I was looking at the wrong figure. With the timegrapher set to 48, I'm getting Dial Up : 288/0.6 ms and Dial Down :, 288 / 0.5 ms, Crown down 230 / 0.9 ms.  I don't worry about beat error unless it's really large, especially on watches without an adjustment. You can spend ages playing around rotating the hairspring, with the chance of damage at every go.

I started out with American Pocket watches, I have some lovely Walthams. I use a small ultrasonic, so could have done something to the timing screws. It was good practice timing them. I have a couple of Riversides that keep amazingly good time

 

[mikepilk]

51 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

 

My Grandfather had a Vertex watch. When he died, it was left to me. I lent it at one time working as a watch/clock maker and never had it returned. The person gave a false number and address.

That's not nice. 

I sent a gold case from a Longines to  watchcaseworks for repair last year. Seemed one of the few places I could get a case repaired. I have had no reply, despite emails and letters. 

[dadistic]

On 8/5/2018 at 12:59 PM, mikepilk said:

That's not nice. 

I sent a gold case from a Longines to  watchcaseworks for repair last year. Seemed one of the few places I could get a case repaired. I have had no reply, despite emails and letters. 

Yikes!  That's not good. Glad you mentioned it.