How do I adjust this hairspring.

[ftwizard]

The balance wheel I bought for a Derby 40N movement, needs adjusting for beat, but I'm not sure how to adjust this type of collet. Do I need to remove it?

 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2016 by ftwizard

[oldhippy]

If its out of beat the only way with this type is remove the thing from the balance wheel. You will need to set it up so the balance impulse pin is in dead center of the pallets then just fit the hairspring collect and make sure its correct at the stud point before fixing it, some times its a trial and error before you get the whole thing correct. Be careful removing as these little sods can be very tight.

[ftwizard]

So I need to remove it to turn it? Will hand removal levers do the job?

[jdm]

Before worrying can you post a timegrapher picture? Better if in 2 or 3 positions.

[oldhippy]

You can tell if a watch is out of beat, when the balance has been fitted to the cock and some power has been added the watch should start if not a little shake will do, now watch for the escape one way then the other if its the same its in beat if its out it needs adjusting, have you listed to the ticking if its even then all is ok, if it sounds funny then its out. Watch repairers/ makers didn't always have fancy machines to tell them everything.

Hand levers would do it but as I said you need to e very careful. You could do the other thing and that is take of the roller and adjust that, that type of fitting for the hairspring can be little sods.

[Cad101]

You beat me to it oldhippy I find it easier to adjust the roller jewel than the collet on these type of hairspings . I usually take the jewel off put stud on attach to the balance cock and put it in place on the watch let it come to rest then make a mark on the edge of the balance wheel with a CD marker for the position of the roller jewel central to the banking pins then press roller jewel in line with the mark ive made a bit more time consuming but does the same job.

[JohnR725]

Why is the hairspring stud missing from your balance complete? Then can we have a picture of the balance bridge a lot of times on newer style balance wheels like this they have floating stud holders.

[oldhippy]

I have never heard that term JohnR725. What is a floating stud holder.

[jdm]

28 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Why is the hairspring stud missing from your balance complete? Then can we have a picture of the balance bridge a lot of times on newer style balance wheels like this they have floating stud holders.

This movement doesn't have an adjustable (floating) stud holder, as well no shock protection. My take is that on such basic vintage pieces it's pointless to be fighting windmills, one risks doing more damage than good, and the value or function of the watch would not be improved anyway.

[oldhippy]

Going by your picture jdm, ftwizard has the wrong balance.

 

[jdm]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

Going by your picture jdm, ftwizard has the wrong balance.

From Ranfft for Derby 40.

[bobm12]

mmm, just from looking at the original picture, isn't that a brand new hairspring...doesn't is has to be vibrated and fitted to the balance wheel...provided it is the right balance wheel as it has been pointed out?

[ftwizard]

Sorry, the picture is an example, not the actual one in use. It is a replacement, brand new and correct. There is no adjustment for beat. I think JDM is probably right and it is not worth the effort and potential damage.

The watch is displaying a rather worrying tendency to stop in the crown right position. I think I've reached the limits of my experience.

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, oldhippy said:

I have never heard that term JohnR725. What is a floating stud holder.

I knew I would get in trouble with the term "floating stud holder" as I was too lazy to look up the correct term. But even though it may be the wrong term it may also be the correct term because terminology and watch repair is very interesting. Depending upon when and where it's different. There are quite a few parts found in a watch that can actually go by several different terms all of which correct depending upon where and when you are. Specifically American pocket watch parts will call themselves different things then modern Swiss terminology. Then add in British terminology things can get really interesting.

So image attached out of a Swiss book its terminology is mobile stud hold.

 

 

 

[JohnR725]

4 minutes ago, ftwizard said:

Sorry, the picture is an example, not the actual one in use. It is a replacement, brand new and correct. There is no adjustment for beat. I think JDM is probably right and it is not worth the effort and potential damage.

The watch is displaying a rather worrying tendency to stop in the crown right position. I think I've reached the limits of my experience.

Always helpful when asking questions if the picture actually matches whatever were trying to solve a problem for.

So this particular modern balance wheel has a modern Poised collet. Then a note regarding the balance wheel and Keeping it poised if you rotate the roller table you screw that up. Although on a modern watch the roller table so small the amount of out of poise is going to be tiny but it still will be there.

[oldhippy]

Thanks for clearing that up. That was a new one for me. So I see its just the stud.

[ftwizard]

Would anyone be interested in trying to diagnose the problem where the watch stops in one particular position? If so, I'll try to explain better.

[jdm]

24 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

But even though it may be the wrong term it may also be the correct term because terminology and watch repair is very interesting. Depending upon when and where it's different. There are quite a few parts found in a watch that can actually go by several different terms all of which correct depending upon where and when you are. Specifically American pocket watch parts will call themselves different things then modern Swiss terminology. Then add in British terminology things can get really interesting.

For example in the book you quoted the balance cock is called bridge. Most English watchmakers would agree that it takes at least two support points for a plate to be called bridge. But the Swiss didn't thought so, even if in French that's called 'coq'.

[oldhippy]

15 minutes ago, ftwizard said:

Would anyone be interested in trying to diagnose the problem where the watch stops in one particular position? If so, I'll try to explain better.

Yes please.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, ftwizard said:

Would anyone be interested in trying to diagnose the problem where the watch stops in one particular position? If so, I'll try to explain better.

As you're new to the messageboard I'm going to assume the you're new to watch repair. One of the problems that face anyone asking a question but more common on newbies is what exactly is the question? So yes we're here to help as soon as we figure out what the problem is then we can work on diagnosis and solving the problem hopefully.

[ftwizard]

Okay.

Derby 40N movement. When I got it, it was running for a bit, then stopping. The balance cock jewel holder and surounding bits were a bit rusty, so I decided to service it. Bearing in mind, this would be only the second watch I'd worked on, I took it apart, cleaned and assembled it. The beat was way out (timegrapher) so I thought, how hard can it be to move the hairspring? so I ruined that balance wheel and spring. I still felt the watch could be saved, so invested in a NOS wheel and spring.

The beat was still well out, but the watch seemed to run well, so I reassembled and gave it to the missus. She was thrilled with it, and wore it out that night. It ran all night, then stopped almost immediately when taken off and put on the table.

Back to the drawing board.

Since then, I've discovered that it stops when positioned with the balance above the pallet fork. It actually stops against the fork end. I've checked and double checked the balance jewels, end shake, side shake etc. I've watched it run under stong magnification, and the pivots look good. I've cleaned again the pallet jewels.

I'v been concentrating on the balance wheel, could it be something further up the chain?

It seems as though the relationship between the impulse jewel and the pallet fire is changing when in that position, causing the balance to bind, but I can't see why.

[ftwizard]

I've also tried the movement without to pallets and it runs easily. If I put a little power on it, it runs, then the escape wheel reverses, as it should, apparently. So I think the train works well. It appears to be something in the escapement. Someone with experience would probably no what it was in an instant.

I've also checked the impulse jewel, it's clean and solid.

Edited June 5, 2016 by ftwizard

[oldhippy]

I've been reading how you have gone about trying to repair this movement and as someone has said you might be new to watch repairing. So I'm going to see if I can help. I would like to start right at the beginning. Check all the train wheels for faults, pivots, teeth, pinions, end shake, jewels make sure there not chipped or lose and set correctly in the plates. Make sure none of the wheels are bent and they all run true. Check the barrel teeth, check for any type of wear in the barrel and barrel bridge and bottom plate. Is the arbor in good condition, no roughness that might bind it, correct mainspring, barrel cap fitted correct. Barrel bridge not bent. Are you using the correct screws for each job. Pallets check for the same type of thing also check the pallet stones are they tight and correct, do they look right and in line with each other and even (not one higher than the other) Are the pallet forks good not bent or rough and the guard pin that's the little pin between the fork, is it straight and not rubbing on anything. When all this has been checked let me know.

[ftwizard]

Thanks for the reply. Yes I'm new to watch repairs, this was the second one I'd attempted. I've done a few more since then.

All that you mentioned has been checked. The mainspring is not new, but has been cleaned and lubed. The caracteristics are roughly the same, regardless of how much it's wound. Train runs lovely, with just the lightest of touches.

Can you tell me what the guard pin does? Maybe it's catching on the impulse jewel at certain angles.

When the watch is put in the position I mentioned, the Timegrapher readout goes mad.

Edited June 6, 2016 by ftwizard

[ftwizard]

After a bit of research, I'm thinking that the balance wheel is leaning towards the pallet fork when in this position, and may be catching the guard pin with the roller.

The watch certainly stops fairly abruptly against the fork, although I can't see which part may be hitting.

Any advice how to check, and what to do if it is.

The balance doesn't seem to have excesive side or end shake, but I guess we're talking very small movements here (pun)