New balance staff not riveting to balance

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, arron said:

Hi John, hopefully these are better pics of the domed stake, along side a flat stake for comparison.  It is definitely domed but it's very shallow.  Do you think this is my problem?  Unfortunately all the domed stakes in my set are this shallow.  If you think this is going to be a problem with any future staff replacement I'll consider trying to find another set.  Like I mentioned, I have done a few other replacements, but maybe I got lucky with the staff/balance hole size differences on those.

It's hard to see in the picture of the staff in the balance, but under a scope I can definitely see that the rivet ridge is flat; I assume from my pounding.  

Thanks for the hamilton pamphlet, which i'm sure i'll be referring to going forward.

You can check the shape when you put a staff inside it. It doesn't look too much different from the one i use. You just need to know that its pushing the edge of the rivet down and over or just slightly outwards without flattening the edge. The stake will reach a point where it bottoms out on the inside of the rivet, any more hammering after that wont do much and maybe some damage to the wheel.

[praezis]

Hello,
a flat dome is not a problem. But your punch seems to be bevelled at the hole, this is the problem. The bore must have a sharp edge to the domed face, dome beginning directly at the hole (see Jon‘s drawing).

Worn punches can be touched up (domed in a lathe, flat ones in the staking tool with flat grinding / Arkansas stone).

Frank

[VWatchie]

16 hours ago, VWatchie said:

there is a significant difference between punching out a staff using a staking set and using a Platax tool. When using a Platax there's zero risk that the punch reaches down to the hole in the balance as the punch is hindered from reaching that far.

16 hours ago, Jon said:

It's no difference using a platex tool or any other method to perform the same task.

I'm afraid that sentence doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me @Jon, as "any other method" would include using a staking tool. I'm not a pro, I don't have a ton of experience, and I could be wrong, but for what it's worth...

I would strongly advise against punching out a balance staff using a staking tool (as demonstrated in too many YouTube videos)

If a staking tool is used it's impossible to avoid having the tip of the punch reach into the hole of the balance arms. Depending on the force used it could not only deform the hole but destroy the balance. The advantage offered by the Platax tool is that it makes it impossible for the tip of the stake/punch to reach the balance staff hole. 

Perhaps you were trying to say "It's no difference using a Platax tool or a similar method such as a  K&D balance staff remover tool to perform the same task"? If so, that would make a lot more sense to me. Surely, the Platax tool and similar tools wouldn't have seen the light of day had they made no difference.

16 hours ago, Jon said:

The risk comes from the rivet being forced through the hole in the balance arms and potentially opening up the hole and not the tool itself.

Yes, there seems to be some consensus that the safest method is to remove the rivet using a lathe, but if I've understood it all correctly, the true purists (who have nothing to be ashamed of) are not even satisfied with turning away the rivet, but instead the hub. However, if a lathe is not an option, surely a Platax tool or similar tool is safer than punching out the staff in a staking tool, no? If you don't agree, please let me know why and I'm sure I'll learn something new.

 

[eccentric59]

16 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Surely, the Platax tool and similar tools wouldn't have seen the light of day had they made no difference.

Let's take this one step further and say that surely Hamilton/Elgin/Rolex wouldn't have not only developed, but bragged about the -- for want of a better term -- breakaway rivet if there was not a problem with watchmakers deforming balances. This isn't a discussion of best practices, but trying to address a mindset of either taking shortcuts or not having the proper skill or equipment.

There are watchmakers without a lathe to cut the rivet, so they must seek less recommended methods to get the job done. There are watchmakers who learned from a teacher to punch rather than cut and in deference to a mentor will continue that tradition even when shown a better way. Then there are watchmakers who see a single purpose tool and determine that if the tool exists it must be because it's the proper way to perform a task. In other words, it's much easier to limit the damage with tools and redesign of parts than it is to change peoples' minds.

 

Let me give you another example from the IT world. Everyone agrees that data needs to be backed up. Best practices suggest that it be performed at least daily and a copy is stored locally and off-site for both security and disaster recovery. And that backup needs to be tested and verified periodically. Whole industries have sprung up around data recovery specifically because best practices are either disregarded, debated or not known. And many operating systems now have auto reminders (aka nagware) that won't go away until some sort of backup is enabled specifically because people just don't do it.

 

I consider myself educated and will most likely be cutting rivets going forward.  Thanks to all.

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, eccentric59 said:

I consider myself educated and will most likely be cutting rivets going forward.  Thanks to all.

Congrats! That sounds like a really good and safe idea. Much safer than punching out the staff in a staking tool, which was my only point. And for those having "a mindset of not having the proper skill or equipment" (the audacity not to be ashamed), I'd recommend a Platax tool or a K&D balance staff remover tool.

Edited March 6 by VWatchie

[Delgetti]

I don‘t have to do this task (replace balance staff) often, maybe one time in a year. As I ruined a Valjoux 72 balance wheel by pushing the staff out without any work on the staff before, I became a fan of the „grind the hub away“ method. So here is a description of my amateur without lathe setup. 
 

I put the balance in a vice, hub side up. I use my micromot with a ball grinding attachment. Then I grind the staff away freehand until the rest of the hub is maybe 0.5 mm.

Then I put the micromot in a stand and adjust the height roughly. Now I grind away the hub step by step by putting sheets of paper (0.05 mm thickness) under the vice. Stand and vice have to be placed on a very flat table of course. When the hub is grinded down to about 0.05 - 0.1 mm you can punch it out in the staking set (correct support from the downside!), the thin rest of the hub will just break off, no damage to the hole, as many others already mentioned. As always you should first try this with a balance from the scrap box.

 

[Endeavor]

1 hour ago, Delgetti said:

Now I grind away the hub step by step by putting sheets of paper (0.05 mm thickness) under the vice.

Interesting way of doing things ! Could you please elaborate on the quote above, as I don't get that one

***EDIT***; Ah, now I see & get it, the grinding tool is fixed at a certain height

Clever

Edited March 6 by Endeavor

[Delgetti]

Sorry, no native speaker, will do my very best.

The table is the fixed ground level. The stand with the micromot and the grinding attachment is standing on the table, so the grinding ball has a fixed distance to the table.

I lift up the vice with the balance in steps of 0.05 mm by putting sheets of paper beneath it.

1 sheet, grind away hub material by moving the vice around under the rotating ball, put next sheet so vice goes 0.05 mm higher, grind away hub material, next sheet and so on.

[Jon]

20 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

See, closing a hole in a plate is to much different from closing of hole in balance arm. A hole in a big plate has many material around the hole and it helps to make the hole smaller as the material has no room where to spread araound so it has to go to the center. The balance arm is narrow and smashing it in the center usually just elongates the arm itself and makes it bend as elongation is different on the both narrowest places where the hole is. And, the hole as a result doesn't want to get smaller at all, but instead of it, the balance deforms badly and forever. So, my advice is not to try to close the hole.

In my experience, it can be done and it doesn't necessarily elongate the balance arms if done carefully. I admit, the amount of material is a lot thinner than a plate, but it is possible and given that in some cases it's the only option left, as many here don't have the skillset to turn a new oversized balance staff to suit the oversized hole

 

20 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

The best way to solve the problem is to make custom staff

Again, this isn't an option to most here and I respect that you are able to perform this task, but this is a forum with watch enthusiasts and not necessarily 'watchmakers', so offering advice outside the skillset of most isn't always that helpful, with all due respect

2 hours ago, Delgetti said:

Then I put the micromot in a stand and adjust the height roughly. Now I grind away the hub step by step by putting sheets of paper (0.05 mm thickness) under the vice. Stand and vice have to be placed on a very flat table of course. When the hub is grinded down to about 0.05 - 0.1 mm you can punch it out in the staking set (correct support from the downside!), the thin rest of the hub will just break off, no damage to the hole, as many others already mentioned. As always you should first try this with a balance from the scrap box.

That's a really great way to do it. Watchmaking is all about finding a way to overcome the problem with what you have in your toolbox and in your head. I like the way you thought this one through and hopefully that will help others alleviate this problem. Nice one!

4 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I'm afraid that sentence doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me @Jon, as "any other method" would include using a staking tool. I'm not a pro, I don't have a ton of experience, and I could be wrong, but for what it's worth...

Sorry about that... If a platax tool or staking tool is used to just punch out the staff, there is a risk of opening up the hole

 

4 hours ago, VWatchie said:

es, there seems to be some consensus that the safest method is to remove the rivet using a lathe, but if I've understood it all correctly, the true purists (who have nothing to be ashamed of) are not even satisfied with turning away the rivet, but instead the hub. However, if a lathe is not an option, surely a Platax tool or similar tool is safer than punching out the staff in a staking tool, no? If you don't agree, please let me know why and I'm sure I'll learn something new.

If the lathe isn't an option, then the way to go would be a platax tool or staking tool to punch out the hole. Staking tools do have a specialised tool for this. I liked @Delgettiway of removing material before punching out the old staff; definitely a safer way than just punching it out. Don't get me wrong, as I've used just a punch to remove the staff in the past and it worked fine and didn't open up the hole. I find it a lot safer to cut the hub or rivet first and then remove the staff. As I will always say, there are more than one way to perform a task, or skin a cat and I never want to dispute what works for someone, or try to say my way is better. I can only tell you what has worked for me from my experience, rather than from an opinion without an experience behind it. When I learn from anyone, if they have an experience, I will listen and maybe learn, if they have an opinion then maybe I'll pass on it, thank you very much.

Edited March 6 by Jon

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I'm afraid that sentence doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me @Jon, as "any other method" would include using a staking tool. I'm not a pro, I don't have a ton of experience, and I could be wrong, but for what it's worth...

I would strongly advise against punching out a balance staff using a staking tool (as demonstrated in too many YouTube videos)

If a staking tool is used it's impossible to avoid having the tip of the punch reach into the hole of the balance arms. Depending on the force used it could not only deform the hole but destroy the balance. The advantage offered by the Platax tool is that it makes it impossible for the tip of the stake/punch to reach the balance staff hole. 

Perhaps you were trying to say "It's no difference using a Platax tool or a similar method such as a  K&D balance staff remover tool to perform the same task"? If so, that would make a lot more sense to me. Surely, the Platax tool and similar tools wouldn't have seen the light of day had they made no difference.

Yes, there seems to be some consensus that the safest method is to remove the rivet using a lathe, but if I've understood it all correctly, the true purists (who have nothing to be ashamed of) are not even satisfied with turning away the rivet, but instead the hub. However, if a lathe is not an option, surely a Platax tool or similar tool is safer than punching out the staff in a staking tool, no? If you don't agree, please let me know why and I'm sure I'll learn something new.

 

I tnink what jon is saying, punching out a staff is punching out a staff, any method under that description is less safe than cutting the staff out .  But if you are cutting out then you need to be pretty damn skilled with a lathe and graver, if not then this is where the safe is now not so safe.  I dont follow you watchie, what do you mean its impossible to avoid having the tip of the stake reach into the hole of the balance arms ? You're  punching at the pivot shoulder not on the rivet

2 hours ago, Delgetti said:

I don‘t have to do this task (replace balance staff) often, maybe one time in a year. As I ruined a Valjoux 72 balance wheel by pushing the staff out without any work on the staff before, I became a fan of the „grind the hub away“ method. So here is a description of my amateur without lathe setup. 
 

I put the balance in a vice, hub side up. I use my micromot with a ball grinding attachment. Then I grind the staff away freehand until the rest of the hub is maybe 0.5 mm.

Then I put the micromot in a stand and adjust the height roughly. Now I grind away the hub step by step by putting sheets of paper (0.05 mm thickness) under the vice. Stand and vice have to be placed on a very flat table of course. When the hub is grinded down to about 0.05 - 0.1 mm you can punch it out in the staking set (correct support from the downside!), the thin rest of the hub will just break off, no damage to the hole, as many others already mentioned. As always you should first try this with a balance from the scrap box.

 

that seems a much bigger piece to breakaway than the rivet.

[VWatchie]

15 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I dont follow you watchie, what do you mean its impossible to avoid having the tip of the stake reach into the hole of the balance arms ? You're  punching at the pivot shoulder not on the rivet

When the staff gives, the tip of the stake will follow through and only be stopped by the hole in the balance arms. If you punch just a tad too hard, the tip of the stake will deform the hole. Well, the tip of the stake will always end up in the hole and deform it. It's just a matter of how much. Hope that made it clearer.

The below video makes me grind my teeth. Oh BTW, did I mention that I think it's a bad idea to knock out the balance staff using a staking set?

 

Edited March 6 by VWatchie

[Jon]

12 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

When the staff gives, the tip of the stake will follow through and only be stopped by the hole in the balance arms. If you punch just a tad too hard, the tip of the stake will deform the hole. Well, the tip of the stake will always end up in the hole and deform it. It's just a matter of how much. Hope that made it clearer?

You'll always be holding the stake so it doesn't follow through to even get close the the balance arms and be tapping it lightly enough so you don't lose control over that stake, but I do understand that it could happen that the stake hits the balance arm. That would be down to the technique you use when using the stake and a watchmakers hammer. Always have control of the stake and accidents are less likely to happen.

I'm going to do a video (not like there aren't many showing this) to show how to perform both methods of removing a balance staff by cutting the hub and using a staking tool. My website/SEO guy is always on at me to add more content to my YouTube channel, so this will get him off my back for a while and maybe give me impetus to post more techniques  

Edited March 6 by Jon

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Jon said:

Staking tools do have a specialised tool for this. 

This is what i use with a staking tool ( not skilled enough yet to cut the staff out but I'm practicing ) umax ?  It has a spring loaded vice that clamps the balance arms to the staking anvil. Hand pressure to load up the spring then an internal punch that pushes out the staff. It does a reasonable job of breaking off the rivet, as an aside piece of info the shelled off ring is 0.09mm thickness from a 10.5"' AS 1187, visible on the inside of the wheel hole.

Edited March 6 by Neverenoughwatches

[VWatchie]

3 hours ago, Jon said:

I'm going to do a video (not like there aren't many showing this) to show how to perform both methods of removing a balance staff by cutting the hub and using a staking tool.

That's great! I can't wait for it! I really can't figure out how you will be able to avoid having the stake follow through and into the hole (no matter how lightly you tap), so that's going to be super interesting, especially as I can then list my Platax on eBay and make myself something like $500 to $1000. Now, I'm still a "watch bedroom-repairer "so not a chance to make that money go into a lathe just now. Nevertheless!

Edited March 6 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

37 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

When the staff gives, the tip of the stake will follow through and only be stopped by the hole in the balance arms. If you punch just a tad too hard, the tip of the stake will deform the hole. Well, the tip of the stake will always end up in the hole and deform it. It's just a matter of how much. Hope that made it clearer.

The below video makes me grind my teeth. Oh BTW, did I mention that I think it's a bad idea to knock out the balance staff using a staking set?

 

Ah ok watchie, i actually thought you were meaning that , i should have included that. If you are superskilled like obviously i am then you dont follow through.

37 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

When the staff gives, the tip of the stake will follow through and only be stopped by the hole in the balance arms. If you punch just a tad too hard, the tip of the stake will deform the hole. Well, the tip of the stake will always end up in the hole and deform it. It's just a matter of how much. Hope that made it clearer.

The below video makes me grind my teeth. Oh BTW, did I mention that I think it's a bad idea to knock out the balance staff using a staking set?

 

Ah ok watchie, i actually thought you were meaning that , i should have included that. If you are superskilled like obviously i am then you dont follow through.

[VWatchie]

10 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Never saw or heard about that before. What is it called? Can it be picked up somewhere?

Edited March 6 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Never saw or heard about that before. What is it called? Can it be picked up somewhere?

Its a vintage item, i doubt if they are still available, I've been trying to remember and looking on the net for it. Something like umax ?  Urmax ? I'm not quite sure. I have a feeling Frank has one @praezis

Edited March 6 by Neverenoughwatches

[Klassiker]

Unruh-Max.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, Klassiker said:

Unruh-Max.

Thats the one, you beat me to it stephen , i just google found it

[Klassiker]

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

you beat me to it stephen

I thought I'd give you the benefit of the German instructions.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, Klassiker said:

I thought I'd give you the benefit of the German instructions.

Cool, are you going to teach me to read some German as well then

[Marc]

32 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Its a vintage item, i doubt if they are still available, I've been trying to remember and looking on the net for it. Something like umax ?  Urmax ? I'm not quite sure. I have a feeling Frank has one @praezis

There's one here if any one is looking for one. (Not mine by the way :-))

[Neverenoughwatches]

28 minutes ago, Marc said:

There's one here if any one is looking for one. (Not mine by the way :-))

They're a nice little gadget, better than a stake. Its good to know if the punch hole is empty.  It has a clearance hole in case a pivot breaks off but if a pivot is jammed in the hole that might be fun getting it out.

[Klassiker]

35 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

are you going to teach me to read some German

Sure, but you need to move to Munich.

Here's my translation, which doesn't add much to NEW's description of how to use it.

Ref. No. 11216 Unruh-Max, accessory for the staking set

It's much quicker and cleaner with the Unruh-Max!

Instructions:

1. Choose a hole on the staking set which is a good fit to the hub but not too small, and centre it.

2. Place the balance in the hole.

3. Set the Unruh-Max onto the staff so that the upper pivot disappears inside the hole in the clamping bolt.

4. Using the palm of the hand, slowly increase the pressure until the rivet flange breaks and the staff is ejected through the staking plate by the inner clamping bolt.

Due to the spring-loading on the lapped contact face, the balance wheel remains in absolutely perfect condition.

 

Guaranteed perfect results? Don't ask me, I've never used it. It came with a staking set I bought. I'm in the hub-cutting camp.

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

Sure, but you need to move to Munich.

Here's my translation, which doesn't add much to NEW's description of how to use it.

Ref. No. 11216 Unruh-Max, accessory for the staking set

It's much quicker and cleaner with the Unruh-Max!

Instructions:

1. Choose a hole on the staking set which is a good fit to the hub but not too small, and centre it.

2. Place the balance in the hole.

3. Set the Unruh-Max onto the staff so that the upper pivot disappears inside the hole in the clamping bolt.

4. Using the palm of the hand, slowly increase the pressure until the rivet flange breaks and the staff is ejected through the staking plate by the inner clamping bolt.

Due to the spring-loading on the lapped contact face, the balance wheel remains in absolutely perfect condition.

 

Guaranteed perfect results? Don't ask me, I've never used it. It came with a staking set I bought. I'm in the hub-cutting camp.

Not quite sure about perfect results, i haven't had any major damage. The outer spring has a lot of tension so when the top is pushed down there is a good amount of pressure on the balance arms keeping them tight to the anvil. When that is in position I actually give the top which holds the punch a sharp tap with a hammer to knock the staff out quick and clean. The punch isn't spring loaded so if there is no hammer time the staff is slowly pushed out, i prefer the hammer.