Incablocs

[MarkF]

I am very new to watch repair and am just getting comfortable with oiling the incablocs in an ST36 movement. Couple of quick questions though. 
 

1) Apparently the top jewel has a flat side and a domed side, but even after staring at it under a 15X loupe I am really just guessing which side is which. Is there some sort of trick for determining g which is the flat side?  And if I accidentally oil the domed side and place the cap over it, does it really make a difference?  
 

2) Sometimes while holding the jewel with my tweezers and oiling it, the jewel either sticks to the oiler or to the tweezers. Is this common or am I doing something wrong?

[bsamuels]

I use a focused light from a phone or night light and try to reflect it off the surface of the jewel. The domed side will have a different (and smaller) reflection pattern than the flat side

[Marc]

1 hour ago, MarkF said:

Is there some sort of trick for determining g which is the flat side?

Look at it under a light, move it about and watch the reflection. The flat side will reflect a uniform flash of brightness as the light glints off it, the domed side won't.

1 hour ago, MarkF said:

if I accidentally oil the domed side and place the cap over it, does it really make a difference?

If you accidentally install the cap jewel upside down then you can effectively reduce the end shake on the balance staff, which could result in loss of amplitude and cause timing issues.

1 hour ago, MarkF said:

the jewel either sticks to the oiler or to the tweezers

This suggests that you might be applying too much oil. Either that or you may need to improve your tweezer technique. It should be possible to apply the oil whilst holding the jewel with your tweezers, which you have to do to stop the oiler picking the jewel up. The oil shouldn't go all the way to the edge of the jewel, which means that it shouldn't come into contact with the tweezers.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, MarkF said:

2) Sometimes while holding the jewel with my tweezers and oiling it, the jewel either sticks to the oiler or to the tweezers. Is this common or am I doing something wrong?

contrary to YouTube videos where watch repair looks so simple and easy pick up your tweezers do everything the first time well it's not. It requires practicing and more practicing and eventually it will get better. So what are you doing wrong you're watching too many of watch repair videos that show how easy it is and you're not practicing enough.

1 hour ago, MarkF said:

1) Apparently the top jewel has a flat side and a domed side, but even after staring at it under a 15X loupe I am really just guessing which side is which. Is there some sort of trick for determining g which is the flat side?  And if I accidentally oil the domed side and place the cap over it, does it really make a difference?  
 

maybe if you can't see a difference there is no difference? I have an image down below you'll notice one side is curved and the other side is flat. If you flip the jewel upside down you will have less end shake as you've reduce the space there. That would conceivably mean you reduce the amplitude basically it wouldn't be a good thing

if you have an overhead light of some sort see if you can see the reflection in the jewel. Like if you had an overhead fluorescent light which is basically a line and you look at the reflection in the jewel you can tell which side is which by the reflection. 

 

[Nucejoe]

I don't see why folks hold end stones with twezers. 

 How do you clean end stones?          perhaps not clean enough to notice that falt side refelcts light a whole lot more than the dome, and if you can't tell which side is which then how do check the flat side for wear. 

rgds

 

[JohnR725]

1 minute ago, Nucejoe said:

I don't see why folks hold end stones with twezers

probably because they're tiny in their hard to hold in your fingers. But there is the minor problem of the word tweezers as you really want to have the right type or specifically the end of the tweezers is really important or you're going to have lots of issues

[MarkF]

Hmmm - the amplitude is only getting up to about 260. I was wondering what the cause could be. Perhaps I found the answer. I will have a look at those jewels. 

[Nucejoe]

Heres the entire proceddure on how I handle end stones. 

Find me a hony cone a cardboard or even white sheet of paper and lay it on flat side of a big flat glass. 

Drop the end stone on the cardboard flat side facing the card board,

Put my finger on dome side of the stone, this ensures keeping it fully under my control,furthure I can press on the stone as hard as I like.

Pour some lighter fluid on the card board  asdie the stone

 Rub the  endstone on the card bosrd as mnay time I like , perss on it as hard as I lkie. 

No other pegging appraoch would come close to this, stone wouldn't fly anywhere,  pushing hard on it is in no way risky.

Once done perss your finger on the stone to pick it up , if no success justt dop it in jar, and thats where you want it anyway, add  ispropinonal to the jar, to remove any tiny piece of card board which have aggrgates around circumference of end stone.

Hunt the stone in the jar with my finger. drop the stone on flat clean glass, so far so good.

put a tiny bit of rodico on flat end of a screwdriver, press the ridic on end stone ,stone sticks to rodico and is at your disposal to oil, once oiled, carry the stone to the incab chaton already place put i  the housing, aim for the jewel , get end stone insdie the chaton, slide the srew driver off in  parrel direcrion of the falt side of the end stone.

End srone flat side has recieve thoroght pegging .were risk free  to transfer to chatons, and oiled, 

Lock the spring on end stone, whipe the dome side with slightly wetted tissue paper, not too wett to dispense ligheter fulid into the setting.  

You grab a round end stone in tweezers, chances of it jumping out of tweezers is unexpectly high.

Rgds

53 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

probably because they're tiny in their hard to hold in your fingers. 

Press your thumb on end stone  to pick it up stick your finger.

 

Edited February 25 by Nucejoe

[MarkF]

Thanks. I’ll give it a try. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

You grab a round end stone in tweezers, chances of it jumping out of tweezers is unexpectly high.

is amazing what we learn on this group versus going to a watch school. In school where it taught the user tweezers now I know how stupid my instructor was on the other hand we practiced and we can user tweezers so maybe the instructor was right after all.

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

is amazing what we learn on this group versus going to a watch school. In school where it taught the user tweezers now I know how stupid my instructor was on the other hand we practiced and we can user tweezers so maybe the instructor was right after all.

 Was,  the fact that spare parts are increasingly getting rare and hard to find ,      ever  mentiomed in school ? 

How would you explains why so many parts ping off around here?  

 Depending on which parts of the globe your are based, ordering repalcement parts is not always an option , so I  consistantly  come up with new tricks to reduce pinging/ breaking/ loosing parts. 

Rgds

 

 

[MarkF]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 Was,  the fact that spare parts are increasingly getting rare and hard to find ,      ever  mentiomed in school ? 

How would you explains why so many parts ping off around here?  

 Depending on which parts of the globe your are based, ordering repalcement parts is not always an option , so I  consistantly  come up with new tricks to reduce pinging/ breaking/ loosing parts. 

Rgds

 

 

I measure my progress based on parts lost/time spent on my knees looking for them. I went from multiple parts per day to 1-2 per week in just two weeks of practice. Very long way to go - but it’s progress!

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, MarkF said:

I measure my progress based on parts lost/time spent on my knees looking for them. I went from multiple parts per day to 1-2 per week in just two weeks of practice. Very long way to go - but it’s progress!

Use of rodico ends loosing end stones. 

Good luck.

 

 

 

[Endeavor]

In the beginning I had problems with handling the cap-stones as well. I discovered a method which suites me much better and I never had a "ping" ever since.

This is an old picture in which I used a huge piece of Rodico. Nowadays I use a much smaller piece of Rodico for better handling.

Once the cap-stone is clean, put the flat side of the cap-stone down (you've now learned how to differentiate between the two sides) and with a small pointed piece of Rodico you pick up the cap-stone on the domed side, like in the picture;

You can now lift and manipulate the cap-stone. You can hold it under the light to see if the flat surface is 100% clean. You can hold it while oiling. Once the oil is on, turn the Rodico, with cap-tone, upside down and place the cap-stone in the waiting Chaton. Hold with your tweezers the top of the cap-stone down and separate the Rodico from the cap-stone/Chaton. The "pointier" you have the Rodico, the easier that seperation goes. Having the Rodico too "pointy" doesn't work very well either, you have to find the happy point ....... if you get my point

Job, under great control, done

Here some interesting information about Anti-shock;

https://www.great-british-watch.co.uk/watch-anti-shock-settings/?sfw=pass1614921835#

 

 

Edited February 26 by Endeavor

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

How would you explains why so many parts ping off around here? 

which theory would you like to hear my favorite is alien abduction.

In real life people learning watch repair tend to be very destructive. I like to relate watch repair is similar to learning to be a doctor except? Doctors usually study and practice on nonliving patients before they get the work on the real thing living. Where as here people like the learner as they go practice on living watches and it's probably good that doctors don't learn the same the same way otherwise their malpractice insurance would be even higher. So yes people learning watch repair are very destructive.

12 hours ago, MarkF said:

ST36 movement

I have an amusing video. In the video he has a Swiss watch versus your clone where they didn't quite follow the same manufacturing steps. So in the real setting the spring will typically hinge back exactly as shown in the video. Although it would be preferred not to do this when the watches running. Makes it a lot easier if it's not running. So on a Chinese clone and watch typically when you hinge back the spring likes the fallout.

 

 

[Endeavor]

Should be standard equipment in a beginners kit

[MarkF]

6 hours ago, Endeavor said:

You can now lift and manipulate the cap-stone. You can hold it under the light to see if the flat surface is 100% clean. You can hold it while oiling. Once the oil is on, turn the Rodico, with cap-tone, upside down and place the cap-stone in the waiting Chaton. Hold with your tweezers the top of the cap-stone down and separate the Rodico from the cap-stone/Chaton. The "pointier" you have the Rodico, the easier that seperation goes. Having the Rodico too "pointy" doesn't work very well either, you have to find the happy point ....... if you get my point

I like the idea of using the rodico to manipulate the cap stone, especially during the oiling process. Just a little confused - since we use rodico to pull the capstone out of the chaton, it seems like it would be a challenge to remove the rodico from the chaton without pulling the two apart. 

[VWatchie]

These days I seldom ping parts (knock on wood!), and when I do I have a wonderful wife who helps me find them having the eyes of a hawk (bless her!). To me personally, it comes down to being relaxed, physically and mentally, and being patient, taking my time, which I can afford as an enthusiast.

I constantly try to monitor my physical state of mind and body. When I become too tense, frustrated, or impatient I try to force myself to take a break, which, in itself can be frustrating at first. This, just like handling tools, takes practice.

[MarkF]

Yeah - the spring on my incabloc seems to fall out a lot. I have noticed the people doing videos using the eta movement seems to have a much easier time manipulating the screen. I was wondering it is just more practice (probably) or if the Swiss movement just fits together better at the hinge. 

[Nucejoe]

9 minutes ago, MarkF said:

it seems like it would be a challenge to remove the rodico from the chaton without pulling the two apart. 

Hold the end stone down in chaton with your tweezers to remove the rodico.  

Once shock spring is locked in the setting, you can whipe / clean  any residue off the setting.  

 

11 minutes ago, MarkF said:

or if the Swiss movement just fits together better at the hinge.

Swiss setting holds the spring in place but the spring in chinese setting  fall out. 

6 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Hold the end stone down in chaton with your tweezers to remove the rodico.  

Once shock spring is locked in the setting, you can whipe / clean  any residue off the setting.  

 

Swiss setting holds the spring in place but the spring in chinese setting  fall out. 

To remove the srping from Swiss setting , you got to remove the setting or at least raise it .

[Endeavor]

40 minutes ago, MarkF said:

since we use rodico to pull the capstone out of the chaton

I'm not sure who "we" is as I'm not a part of how "we" do it. Most of "us" develop their own method(s).

41 minutes ago, MarkF said:

it seems like it would be a challenge to remove the rodico from the chaton without pulling the two apart

Please re-read what has been said;

7 hours ago, Endeavor said:

Hold with your tweezers the top of the cap-stone down and separate the Rodico from the cap-stone/Chaton

 

[eccentric59]

12 hours ago, MarkF said:

I measure my progress based on parts lost/time spent on my knees looking for them.

Incorrect metric. If you spend all your time looking for lost parts, you'll get much better at that and not improve your part handling skills.  

 

My method is pretty close to what others have stated with a few variations -- similar to the differences between the way the NY Philharmonic and the Vienna Symphony play Tchaikovsky's Orchestral Suite #4. Two complicated arrangements, same results.

 

Remove the cap jewel and the chaton with a little bit of rodico on the end of pegwood. I then drop them both in a 1ml vial of one-dip (or whatever highly volatile and toxic solvent you have on hand). The tiny vial makes them easy to find/retrieve and saves on the use (and exposure to) the one-dip. I then drop the cap stone onto a sheet of watchpaper, tear off a corner of the watchpaper, put it over the cap stone and rub it around until it's clean on both sides. At that point it's pretty clear which is the flat and which is the domed side. Of course you'll need good magnification to see it.

I then pick up the stone by the domed side with my little rodico-on-a-stick and roll it over to show flat side up. You don't want to jam the stone in the rodico, just enough contact to lift it is ideal.

Oil it, and then place the chaton on top. Here's the trick -- don't lift the chaton up, but slide it horizontally to get the rodico to let go without pulling the stone out of the chaton. Now you just have to place it back in the setting and close the spring. Easy as computing Pi to the last digit.

 

As for placing the cap stone domed side down, there is a tendency for oil to migrate to the outer edge instead of staying in the middle where it belongs.

[JackH]

2 hours ago, MarkF said:

Yeah - the spring on my incabloc seems to fall out a lot. I have noticed the people doing videos using the eta movement seems to have a much easier time manipulating the screen. I was wondering it is just more practice (probably) or if the Swiss movement just fits together better at the hinge. 

I see this a lot with the Chinese movements too and have lost springs in the past. I usually hinge the spring back onto a tiny ball of rodico to hold it. I don't see this problem on the Swiss movements I have worked on. I don't know how they do it with the balance spinning. I have enough trouble when things are stationary.

Edited February 26 by JackH

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, MarkF said:

Yeah - the spring on my incabloc seems to fall out a lot. I have noticed the people doing videos using the eta movement seems to have a much easier time manipulating the screen. I was wondering it is just more practice (probably) or if the Swiss movement just fits together better at the hinge. 

3 hours ago, JackH said:

I see this a lot with the Chinese movements too and have lost springs in the past. I usually hinge the spring back onto a tiny ball of rodico to hold it. I don't see this problem on the Swiss movements I have worked on. I don't know how they do it with the balance spinning. I have enough trouble when things are stationary

11 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I have an amusing video. In the video he has a Swiss watch versus your clone where they didn't quite follow the same manufacturing steps. So in the real setting the spring will typically hinge back exactly as shown in the video. Although it would be preferred not to do this when the watches running. Makes it a lot easier if it's not running. So on a Chinese clone and watch typically when you hinge back the spring likes the fallout.

 

the video is not perfect but it shows the concept. I did make a comment that it's much better to do this when it's not running. As when it's running it makes things much more challenging besides there is the other little problem. which is typically would never have a situation like the video shows?

one of the problems with cleaning a watch is what to do with the balance wheel to keep it from getting damaged. Plus if you have things like the modern watches with the etachron system removing the balance wheel from the bridge is a pain. So if you have removable jewels like this you don't actually have to remove the balance from the bridge. The watch is disassembled the balance bridge is put back in held in place by its screw. Then the jewels are removed the spring is put back in place unless it's the Chinese and it falls out. If it is the Chinese just put it someplace safe you'll need it later on. If it's the Swiss hinge it back in place and lock it down it will be just fine.

then a reminder here regarding the jewel settings you do want to keep them separate because they may not be the same size. A lot of times the dial side will be physically smaller because you don't see that. Or even if they are the same size typically on the balance bridge because of the regulator the end stone will be thicker. So just works best if you can keep them separate.

so basically this is good way of allowing the balance wheel would be safely protected. The pivots are exposed the cleaning fluid so they will clean fine and this is why you'd never have the situation in the video where he's removing jewels from a running watch and only cleaning the jewels and not cleaning his balance pivots.

Then the picture below shows that yes you can really clean watches without a fancy cleaning machine. You put all the parts in the thimble baskets making sure the jewels go in a suitable basket that they can't escape from.

then why does your spring fallout well it's supposed of fallout it's unfortunately been designed that way to fallout? then yes we've discussed this before the problem with the message board is finding where we've discussed it before multiple times can be a challenge as people titled the discussion interesting ways so I will just repeat the whole thing.

So are looking at the bottom of the setting removed from the plate or balance bridge in this particular case. On the right is a setting out of an Omega watch which is why it's that color Omega watches typically have a copper color to them. So this is a Swiss setting original and notice I circled something? When the thing was machined they left some metal behind. You can actually see the spring is still in the setting when it's released it can't go back because it runs into that little bit of metal. Just a warning a key additionally usually on the dial side where things are thinner the spring might actually come out and on the Swiss version it's a pain to get it back in because it wasn't supposed to fall. But typically on the regulator side the spring will almost never come out because it has that machining and the metal to keep it in place.

Now on the left-hand side notice that the Chinese took the easy route and failed to machine it correctly. There is nothing to hold the spring in place which is why it falls out. It's the problem of the Chinese cloning watches they don't exactly follow all the steps.

Edited February 26 by JohnR725