Diagnosing an unopened watch... (Rolex 2135)

[Knebo]

Hello everyone, 

This in an interesting one. First off, I can't open this watch because my friend may return it to the seller if I can't fix it. I have one picture from the seller, see below. So I'm thinking what it could be. 

1. It runs perfectly well on the timegrapher. Good rate, low delta across positions, amplitude of 260. 

2. It runs well laying down over night. No loss of time. 

3. On the wrist it looses about 1h in 8h.

4. No suspicious rotor sounds (no scratching). 

5. 

Initially, when I saw it running so far behind, I was certain it would be a loose cannon pinion. But since it's not running behind over night, I'm not sure anymore.

Crown time setting has decent resistance, but it may just be the rubber tube gasket that has friction against the crown stem (I can say from experience that this resistance exists even if the canon pinion is totally loose). 

What do you think? Any other more/less obvious causes? 

Thanks! 

Edited February 21 by Knebo
Photo added

[RichardHarris123]

You forgot the photo, without opening it, even with suggestions, how will you know for sure what the issue is? 

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

You forgot the photo, without opening it, even with suggestions, how will you know for sure what the issue is? 

Photo added, sorry. 

Sure... you're right. I won't know for sure. Maybe, if I'm honest with myself, I just want to hear that it can indeed happen with a loose cannon pinion that it'll run fine laying down by slip and run slow when worn. 

But also would like to hear some other "guesses". 

I mean, if on the timegrapher is literally perfect in all positions, I doubt that anything is really wrong with the mainspring, gear train and escapement. I keep going back to the canon pinion in my head... 

[Nucejoe]

 Usually loose canon pinion makes moving the hands feel loose, so if it feels right it likely to be right. Theres also other possibilties, like a broken gear teeth in minute train, loose gear train bridge , and the like.

 The worst would be having to repair the mainplate,   a loose locating pin, and the like.

You have a lathe, don't you ?   

 I go ahead and attack the watch, if you don't you keep wondering what the issue was.

Rgds

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, Knebo said:

Hello everyone, 

This in an interesting one. First off, I can't open this watch because my friend may return it to the seller if I can't fix it. I have one picture from the seller, see below. So I'm thinking what it could be. 

1. It runs perfectly well on the timegrapher. Good rate, low delta across positions, amplitude of 260. 

2. It runs well laying down over night. No loss of time. 

3. On the wrist it looses about 1h in 8h.

4. No suspicious rotor sounds (no scratching). 

5. 

Initially, when I saw it running so far behind, I was certain it would be a loose cannon pinion. But since it's not running behind over night, I'm not sure anymore.

Crown time setting has decent resistance, but it may just be the rubber tube gasket that has friction against the crown stem (I can say from experience that this resistance exists even if the canon pinion is totally loose). 

What do you think? Any other more/less obvious causes? 

Thanks! 

I'm dont understand why your friend doesn't send it back ?

[Nucejoe]

9 hours ago, Knebo said:

Crown time setting has decent resistance, but it may just be the rubber tube gasket that has friction against the crown stem (I can say from experience that this resistance exists even if the canon pinion is totally loose). 

A test for this;  is to oil the stem. 

A question, hands don't jump out of alignment, do they? 

 

Edited February 22 by Nucejoe

[JohnR725]

15 hours ago, Knebo said:

1. It runs perfectly well on the timegrapher. Good rate, low delta across positions, amplitude of 260. 

2. It runs well laying down over night. No loss of time. 

3. On the wrist it looses about 1h in 8h.

looks good on the timing machine fully wound up but what does it look like on the timing machine 24 hours later?

then if we look at the three items what is the difference we see? Fully wound up on the timing machine with limited motion. Sitting calm and relaxed overnight with no movement then I assume on the wrist the watch moves around? We don't get a picture the dial side how closer the secondhand for instance to the crystal? You're asking for gases there is a guess not a good guess but sometimes the hands to rub

I would be much more interested in seeing what it looks like on the timing machine after eight hours on the wrist is still have the right amplitude how does timekeeping look.

[Bonefixer]

Could the hour wheel be slipping? I'm a complete newbie at this, but when I recently reassembled a (cheap, not Rolex) watch and forgot (or had lost) the dial washer this is what happened.  Dial up with gravity on its side, it ran ok, but if it was dial down I think the hour wheel could move 'out of gear' and so it didn't keep time.

Good point above regarding the hands losing alignment - this is what will happen if the cannon pinion keeps spinning as it should but only intermittently engages the motion works to turn the hour hand.

(Like I said, complete newbie - laugh/flame away if what I'm saying is complete nonsense)

[Endeavor]

Regardless of what the cause of the problem may be, as long as the option is open to return it to the seller, I would say return the watch to the seller and let the seller sort it out.

As soon as you open the watch, that option is out of the window and it becomes your problem / responsibility; could be simple & cheap or costly ........ ?

AND; a good Rolex shouldn't have any of those problems ...

Edited February 22 by Endeavor

[nevenbekriev]

@Knebo, there is difference in behavior when the crown O-ring is tight and the cannon pinion is tight: if the resistance is from the cannon pinion, the free play in the gears when crown rotates forward/reverse fills like no resistance for some angle of rotation of the crown. If the crown is tight and the cannon is loose, then no such free play will exist.

Another thing: If the movements work correctly but the hands stay in place, then the second hand must work correctly too and if observed frequentlyand compared to some quartz watch, this may help to understand what happens. It is possible if the rotor bearing is worn, the rotor to touch the balance wheel in some position of the movement, thus stopping the movement for a while

Edited February 22 by nevenbekriev

[Knebo]

So, quick update (my wife is travelling and I'm temporarily single-dad of my 4-year old during school holidays + working my regular job as much as possible):

Very interesting case. 

It's not the canon pinion. Not the rotor, either. 

The watch runs very well, fully wound, after 24h and after a day of rotor-winding. Clean lines, good amplitude, good timekeeping. 

BUT it outright stops from one second to the next at around 3 o'clock (see the hyperlapse gif video below. Note: it runs as a loop, so don't get confused. When it stops, it stops). When I shake it a bit, it'll continue running. But clearly there's something blocking it at a specific time. I'm testing right now if that's every 12h or every 24h.

I'm guessing a tooth/dirt on the center wheel or 24h calendar wheel? 

Note on video: this is after about 20h of running, hence the ~210-220 amplitude. 

 

On the rationale of looking into this instead of sending it back: the seller is offering 300 Euro if my friend keeps it and figures out her own repair (i.e. me). 

 

 

Edited February 22 by Knebo

[Jon]

Does it stop every three minutes like your time-lapse shows, or at that particular point where the minute hand gets to the 5 marker?

[watchweasol]

Hi like Jon noticed  stops on 5 marker, does it restart it’s self or do you have to interject.

[Knebo]

9 minutes ago, Jon said:

Does it stop every three minutes like your time-lapse shows, or at that particular point where the minute hand gets to the 5 marker?

The GIF-video is a loop. 

The watch stops when it gets to the 5 marker and doesn't come back on. But if I shake it a bit , it will continue running but will "struggle". I.e. running 1h late after a 2-3 hours of getting through the "rough patch". 

[nevenbekriev]

OK, set the hands in different manner, e.g. 10 min ahead, to see if stopping on the 5 marker will change to another place.

[Jon]

So it stops on the 5 marker every time regardless if it is at past 3 o'clock or 4 or 5 etc?

Edited February 22 by Jon

[Knebo]

9 minutes ago, Jon said:

So it stops on the 5 marker every time regardless if it is at past 3 o'clock or 4 or 5 etc?

No, it only stops one every 12 or 24h - but always around 3/4 o'clock. I'm testing that right now. 

Edited February 22 by Knebo

[Jon]

I've had this issue before. Coincidentally with a vintage Rolex. But it happened every hour, not every 12 or 24 hours. It was a dodgy pinion leaf on the centre wheel. I doubt this is the issue in this case though. Personally, I would take the job on and see what happens when the hands are removed.

I reckon it is a problem with the minute wheel in the motion work, as this is a 12 to 1 reduction wheel, so if this is happening every 12 hours that would be the first place to look

Edited February 22 by Jon

[nevenbekriev]

Sorry if You already know this, but stops due deffect in 'slow wheels' happen together with gradual and long decreasing of amplitude, then 'start' is with long and gradual increasing of amplitude.  I guess this will exclude such stops here. Then stops by the 4th wheel should happen (or at least short decreasing of amplitude) every minute, and due the 3th wheel - about 8 minutes. Then, stops due bad escapement adjustment exist, they happen iregularry and more frequently when watch is on the hand than when it stays still

PS Now I saw the gif and the timefrapher on it, so actually slow decreasing of amplitude is seen

Edited February 22 by nevenbekriev

[Knebo]

20 minutes ago, Jon said:

Personally, I would take the job on and see what happens when the hands are removed.

Yes, my gut feeling is also that this will be an easy fix. Maybe a more-or-less expensive spare part. 

21 minutes ago, Jon said:

reckon it is a problem with the minute wheel in the motion work, as this is a 12 to 1 reduction wheel, so if this is happening every 12 hours that would be the first place to look

Yes that's my thinking. One of the dial side wheels. Like you said, the minute wheel or the 24h calendar wheel. 

 

15 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Sorry if You already know this, but stops due deffect in 'slow wheels' happen together with gradual and long decreasing of amplitude, then 'start' is with long and gradual increasing of amplitude.  I guess this will exclude such stops here. Then stops by the 4th wheel should happen (or at least short decreasing of amplitude) every minute, and due the 3th wheel - about 8 minutes. Then, stops due bad escapement adjustment exist, they happen iregularry and more frequently when watch is on the hand than when it stays still

Ok that's interesting and contradicts my current thinking. It makes sense, though. That would be more tricky to repair (for me!). 

From what I see so far, it seems to stop around the same time (3/4 o'clock). Which points more towards the dial side wheels. However, I don't think there an exact time where it stops. I'm trying to re-construct the stopping moment a few times to see if it's every 12/24h and what the margin is (i.e. sometimes at 3.00 then 3.30 or 350 etc). 

Cheers! 

[Nucejoe]

 Once your sure its only 12th and 24th hr, you know it points to date complication, date gear train perhaps even  multiple faults, a weak + another ( strong ) friction spot.

Do we have a datasheet?  or   shematic diagram on this caliber? 

 

 

 

 

[nevenbekriev]

28 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

PS Now I saw the gif and the timefrapher on it, so actually slow decreasing of amplitude is seen

Yes, if the stop happens on the same position of hour hand, then search the fault in hour wheel, or day wheel.

Edited February 22 by nevenbekriev

[Knebo]

4 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Yes, if the stop happens on the same position of hour hand, then search the fault in hour wheel, or day wheel.

Actually, I don't see the slow and gradually decrease of amplitude. I took a 2h long time-lapse and the amplitude is always between 210-220 (this is after 20h of running perfectly fine). Then it stops with a 10sec "fight". 

Screenshot of the very moment it happens :

 

[JohnR725]

2 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Do we have a datasheet?  or   shematic diagram on this caliber? 

I believe the discussion use the word Rolex and that means it's pretty darn hard to get a document for all the various Rolexes. There is a seller in Italy though you could purchase one they are but as far as PDFs go there's not a lot of them out there. Plus they all look really really bad typically which is interesting is the newest manuals are really beautiful in color at least they were up until they went purely online and when none of us will ever see those.

3 minutes ago, Knebo said:

210-220 (this is after 20h of running perfectly fine).

the amplitude would be fine as long as you're in the right position the image you showed way up above look like it was dial down that is not the right position

 

On 2/21/2024 at 11:49 AM, Knebo said:

my friend may return it to the seller if I can't fix it.

this is a interesting remark? In other words your friend is buying a defective watch and hoping you will fix it? So why exactly is the watch being sold in what condition is it being advertised in? One of the problems with Rolex and other high-end watches is people often times past their problems on to unsuspecting buyers. There is a series a Rolex watches where the base caliber  runs at one frequency but the others run at different frequencies and often times we get these watches with awed timing stuff because someone did a mixing and matching of components to make a watch and then pass it off as it has a minor issue. So where is buying this should get some sort a guarantee that the watch is actually an perfect running condition which it's not if you're looking at it as somebody may be just passing problems on to the next person which is why you're having a problem

[nevenbekriev]

OK, 10 sek is not so slow, but not fast too. The amplitude is shown integrated for long time, so it can't change fast enough on the screen.  For sure it doesn't look like escapement problem, this is lack of power in the train.