Ultrasonic Cleaners

[ifibrin]

9 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks ifibrin. It doesn't really say on there what it actually is. It says what it isn't and what it does and its characteristics. Could that be because they don't want to give away the ingredients or that is simply just an alcohol that is easily available at a much cheaper price than they are offering. 

Actually I am surprised to find out that it’s a mixture of hydrocarbons and not miscible with water. It just displaces water. It’s supposed to be quite smelly and needs good ventilation to use safely.

Edited April 17, 2022 by ifibrin

[GregG]

4 hours ago, jdm said:

I never said ot implied that lighter fluid does any damage - of course it doesn't. I just said that with less money you can buy half a liter of pure product example

 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142061406816?hash=item2113850a60:g:vjQAAOSwgc1axeUo

 

I'm curious how that guys prices are so low.  Roughly $13 for a half liter?  Everyone else starts at around $40.  And unfortunately he doesn't ship to the US.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, ifibrin said:

Actually I am surprised to find out that it’s a mixture of hydrocarbons and not miscible with water. It just displaces water. It’s supposed to be quite smelly and needs good ventilation to use safely.

That's really useful.  Thank you

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, GregG said:

I'm curious how that guys prices are so low.  Roughly $13 for a half liter?  Everyone else starts at around $40.  And unfortunately he doesn't ship to the US.

This is the lighter fuel at 89 pence per 100mm

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

This is the lighter fuel at 89 pence per 100mm

I think I'm going to switch to isopropyl tbh at 21 quid per gallon. I need to confirm with the seller that the product is genuine. And just keep the naptha for balance and pallet clean. I can confirm  that alcohol will dissolve shellac, I used to make up french polish with meths and shellac flakes.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[jdm]

1 hour ago, GregG said:

I'm curious how that guys prices are so low. 

Yes it's not easily available in the US, probay the one you see is pharmaceutical laboratory grade, where is used to solvent for fats. Maybe you can find a more refined type of naphta. In a pinch even gasoline isn't that different, altough filled with too many additives which have nothing to do with cleaning. 

[HectorLooi]

Hi @jdm, do you have a photo of your cleaning machine with the distiller?

When you distill the used alcohol, what percentage of it is lost? Is the yield affected by the ambient room temperature?

I wonder if laboratory distilling glassware can be used for this purpose.

[GregG]

I can't find them, but I saw a few posts of people mentioning they used a heated bath with flammable cleaning fluids.  Obvious question, is that even remotely safe?

Edited April 18, 2022 by GregG

[TimpanogosSlim]

For what it's worth, I found a large perforated stainless tea strainer that neatly fits in the tall-form 8oz jelly jars that are common in US grocery stores, for home canning. 

The "Medium" size from this listing: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002618799458.html

 

[grsnovi]

I broke down and purchased an Elma basket stack that has three stainless baskets about 2.5" DIA x 0.5" HIGH as well as a tiny basket that fits inside one of the other three. These stack inside the blue plastic attachment for an Elma machine. This will allow me to do a whole movement at one go rather than breaking everything out into the little tiny baskets that I had originally purchased.

[LittleWatchShop]

What do you use to clean...sorry if I missed that

[grsnovi]

17 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

What do you use to clean

At the moment I'm using a generic ultrasonic cleaner that I picked up on Amazon along with an ultrasonic concentrate that mixes with water. So far I have only run one set of old Elgin grade 313 parts through this. I'm likely going switch to something more watch-specific for a clean/rinse pairing. While I was careful to dry everything, I have noticed some tinges of rust here and there. I may clean again using lighter fluid with a rinse of Security Brand® Hairspring Dip.

I'm not anxious to spend $100+ on 2 gallons of L&R product at this point.

I do have lighter fluid and 99.9% IPA on hand.

[TimpanogosSlim]

6 hours ago, grsnovi said:

I broke down and purchased an Elma basket stack that has three stainless baskets about 2.5" DIA x 0.5" HIGH as well as a tiny basket that fits inside one of the other three. These stack inside the blue plastic attachment for an Elma machine. This will allow me to do a whole movement at one go rather than breaking everything out into the little tiny baskets that I had originally purchased.

 

How much did it set you back? I got these chinese cheapies to retire the aluminum mesh baskets i cobbled together 11 years ago, and perhaps pass them and my pimento jars and old low-power ultrasonic onto some other beginner. 

Last year when i got back into the hobby i bought the relatively cheap brass bodied screw-together parts baskets. Since switching to an ammoniated solution i think they react too much with the ammonia. 

Digging around recently i found these reasonably priced knockoffs of some big name stainless small parts baskets: 

https://www.watchmaterial.com/basket-for-cleaning-parts-bas1/

Two of those should do me fine for containing train wheels, etc, inside the larger baskets. 

They also have some not-bad watch display boxes for watch collections on clearance. My order came with one of those awful blister-packed starter tool kits. I suspect that WM *is paylak, or their US distributor. 

 

[grsnovi]

2 hours ago, TimpanogosSlim said:

How much did it set you back?

A lot...

Look here.

[GregG]

Anytime know where similarly sized (50-60mm) baskets can be found for cheap, like on eBay or AliExpress?  Finding the small 20mm ones is no problem, but trying to find bigger ones.

[ifibrin]

On 4/19/2022 at 5:18 AM, GregG said:

I can't find them, but I saw a few posts of people mentioning they used a heated bath with flammable cleaning fluids.  Obvious question, is that even remotely safe?

 

If the heated water (only use water!) bath is 40deg or lower, and you are using a small volume of benzine in a capped glass jar, it should be reasonably safe (low risk). If you are using the benzine in an open jar, then it could potentially be more dangerous.

Do note that the manufacturer does technically discourage all use of flammable cleaning liquids, even in a capped jar, for legal liability issues. As such, you have to practice your own discretion... If you are very risk averse, then you probably should not use any flammable cleaning liquids in a heated bath at all.

Edited April 30, 2022 by ifibrin

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, ifibrin said:

 

If the heated water (only use water!) bath is 40deg or lower, and you are using a small volume of benzine in a capped glass jar, it should be reasonably safe (low risk). If you are using the benzine in an open jar, then it could potentially be more dangerous.

Do note that the manufacturer does technically discourage all use of flammable cleaning liquids, even in a capped jar, for legal liability issues. As such, you have to practice your own discretion... If you are very risk averse, then you probably should not use any flammable cleaning liquids in a heated bath at 

1 hour ago, ifibrin said:

 

If the heated water (only use water!) bath is 40deg or lower, and you are using a small volume of benzine in a capped glass jar, it should be reasonably safe (low risk). If you are using the benzine in an open jar, then it could potentially be more dangerous.

Do note that the manufacturer does technically discourage all use of flammable cleaning liquids, even in a capped jar, for legal liability issues. As such, you have to practice your own discretion... If you are very risk averse, then you probably should not use any flammable cleaning liquids in a heated bath at all.

The water does reach a temperature of around 40 % celcius towards the end of the cleaning cycle anyway Regardless of a heating element or not. 

 

[GregG]

19 hours ago, ifibrin said:

 

If the heated water (only use water!) bath is 40deg or lower, and you are using a small volume of benzine in a capped glass jar, it should be reasonably safe (low risk). If you are using the benzine in an open jar, then it could potentially be more dangerous.

Do note that the manufacturer does technically discourage all use of flammable cleaning liquids, even in a capped jar, for legal liability issues. As such, you have to practice your own discretion... If you are very risk averse, then you probably should not use any flammable cleaning liquids in a heated bath at all.

You know, now that I'm thinking back to it, when we used to make stuff in my lab in grad school, we'd ultrasonic it with acetone and then isopropyl alcohol, both in open breakers, and I never had a problem.  We didn't heat the bath, but I've heard people talk about the possibility of the ultrasonic action vaporizing and igniting the fumes, but that never happened.

[GuyMontag]

On 4/29/2022 at 8:45 PM, TimpanogosSlim said:

 

Digging around recently i found these reasonably priced knockoffs of some big name stainless small parts baskets: 

https://www.watchmaterial.com/basket-for-cleaning-parts-bas1/

Two of those should do me fine for containing train wheels, etc, inside the larger baskets. 

 

 

I have 4 of these, or at least similar to these, with the soldered mesh screen and the press on cap. I kept losing parts in the cleaning process. Looking at these baskets under a microscope and it's easy to see why. There are multiple gaps everywhere. I've since bit the bullet and bought some of the Bergeon mini baskets and they are FAR superior and IMO, worth the price.

Edited May 2, 2022 by GuyMontag

[ifibrin]

57 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

I have 4 of these, or at least similar to these, with the soldered mesh screen and and the press on cap. I kept losing parts in the cleaning process. Looking at these baskets under a microscope and it's easy to see why. There are multiple gaps everywhere. I've since bit the bullet and bought some of the Bergeon mini baskets and they are FAR superior and IMO, worth the price.

Does anyone ever get worried that a fine pivot (such as escape wheel pivot) gets caught in one of the mesh holes during the cleaning process, and gets bent or broken when the wheel gets subjected to spinning during cleaning?

Edited May 2, 2022 by ifibrin

[rossjackson01]

Such an interesting thread. Read it twice and will read a few more times. So much brilliant information. Thank you to all participants. 

Regards

Ross

[LittleWatchShop]

7 hours ago, ifibrin said:

Does anyone ever get worried that a fine pivot (such as escape wheel pivot) gets caught in one of the mesh holes during the cleaning process, and gets bent or broken when the wheel gets subjected to spinning during cleaning?

I have never worried about the escape wheel.  However, I am careful about the center wheel because it has a long pivot that can go through the mesh of my L&R spinning machine.  I make sure it does not protrude downward into the lower basket and not the upper lid mesh.

[TimpanogosSlim]

On 4/30/2022 at 6:02 AM, GregG said:

Anytime know where similarly sized (50-60mm) baskets can be found for cheap, like on eBay or AliExpress?  Finding the small 20mm ones is no problem, but trying to find bigger ones.

There's a deep morass of dirt cheap potential ad-hoc baskets on aliexpress if you search for things like "stainless infuser". 

The trick is finding one that fits the jars you are using and has the features you want. 

 

[grsnovi]

14 hours ago, ifibrin said:

Does anyone ever get worried

As a beginner, I'm hoping that all of the worrying has already been done by the pro's. Most of the guys doing watch restoration videos on YT seem to use watch cleaning machines and pop their parts into various mesh baskets and trays. I'm assuming that following a similar route I should be fine unless/until catastrophe strikes.

So far I haven't been attempting to service anything other than practice movements so, no - at this time I'm not worried.

[Neverenoughwatches]

17 hours ago, ifibrin said:

Does anyone ever get worried that a fine pivot (such as escape wheel pivot) gets caught in one of the mesh holes during the cleaning process, and gets bent or broken when the wheel gets subjected to spinning during cleaning?

They do ifibrin good point. It has happened to me a couple of times, not so much of a problem bending a pivot in the ultra sonic but you have to be really careful getting it out of the basket afterwards.