Information please - Seiko 4006 balance complete

[rossjackson01]

Hello.

I've been looking, but cannot make head nor tail of the information available. Being dyslexic does not help. I have tried to find the part, honest, and am not trying to get someone else to do my work.

I need a balance complete. Hairspring and balance cock for a Seiko 4006a. The balance I have from ebay has been destroyed by the person who tried to service the watch prior. They even broke the pivot on the escape wheel, of which I already have a spare. 

Seiko 4006 parts - 310470 balance. Cock 171805, but I need it complete

CousinsUk does not have the balance available, nor can I find which other Seiko has the equivalent balance and cock. I know that many Seiko's use the same interchangeable part and I am hoping that it is so for the 4006 balance and cock. 

Any help would be appreciated. 

Regards

Ross 

 

[Nucejoe]

 Best to find the parts in Europe, as shipping costs from here are unresonably high, but price of part can go either way.

Heres a donor for $ 20 , suppose to need a service.

https://esam.ir/item/25839992

I have seen NOS balance complete in my late watchmakers estate, can ask his son and let you know how much he wants for it.

Used cock are generally much cheaper.

Rgds

 

[rossjackson01]

Thank you Nucejoe. Unfortunately the site is in not portrayed in English. I can't translate. Don't know if postage is included or available. $20 is a good price. 

[Jon]

Sometimes if you go on German eBay, eBay.de, and type in what you are looking for in German, such as 'watchmaker's tools, which is 'Uhrmacherwerkzeuge' and in the 'Condition' state 'Gebraucht' which is 'used', because they haven't listed the part as 'International shipping' it won't appear on our eBay. Result! No one in this country is seeing it!

I find if you ask the seller if they would ship to the UK they are more than happy to. It's a good trick with most watchmaker's tools that won't appear on our eBay. Try it, you'll be blown away at what you find and the low prices that they go for. It's the same for Italian, Spanish, and French eBay as well as many others. A trick I learned before Brexit. Keep it under your hat. Wink wink!

Edited December 23, 2023 by Jon

[HectorLooi]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/296117480530?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=4KkjO2stSJK&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=v36TsHWBSw-&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

I found this donor watch but am not sure of the condition of the balance. Buying from India always has its risks 

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

 Don't know if postage is included or available. $20 is a good price. 

Postage not included, I doubt if any of these seller understand English

International shipping rate is or was $50  up to one kilogram, so  multiple purchase and combining shipping saves $.

I have a arron boy who do the international shipping to you.

You can also ask the sellers for discounts.

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Nucejoe

[CYCLOPS]

ok the balance complete [part code 310] [individual part code 470] are the same for movements 4005A [27J], 4006A [17J], 4006A [27J], 6215A [35J], 6245A [35J], 6245A [39J]

and the balance cock [part code 171] [individual part code 805] are the same for 4005A [27J], 4006A [17J], 4006A [27J], I hope this helps with your search.....  

[rossjackson01]

Hello folks. Advice please. I am working on my 4006a.

Train of wheels is excellent. Pallet fork ok. Balance. YUK.  I have two choices. New, or learn how to restore. 

I've purchased 3 movements and can make 2. However, both the remaining balances are not useable 

 

In the opinion of those in the know. Are the two that I am showing, repairable? 

Never worked at this level. Quite worried.

 

 

Edited January 23 by rossjackson01
Spelling, Grammar

[nevenbekriev]

Is it only the hairsprings or there are broken pivots?

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

Hello folks. Advice please. I am working on my 4006a.

Train of wheels is excellent. Pallet fork ok. Balance. YUK.  I have two choices. New, or learn how to restore. 

I've purchased 3 movements and can make 2. However, both the remaining balances are not useable 

 

In the opinion of those in the know. Are the two that I am showing, repairable? 

Never worked at this level. Quite worried.

 

 

Absolutely Ross, no doubt in my mind that you can fix both of those hairsprings. I resurrected this one about a year ago, i took me about 4 hours to get it something like.

[rossjackson01]

7 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Is it only the hairsprings or there are broken pivots?

Pivots are all ok.

Edited January 23 by rossjackson01

[nevenbekriev]

OK, probably only the outer curve is bent and there should be no problem to bring them to normal state.. To be sure for the condition, get hte balances off the cocks and show the hairsprings

[rossjackson01]

Never. Wow! Double Wow.

I have 17 knackered balances. All from ebay purchases over the last 2 years. Buying very cheap movements for spares has resulted in many extra parts, and just as many broken parts.  I've tended to buy for the hope of getting a good balance. 9 out of 10 are usually in a poot state. False economy.

Nevenbekriev and Never.

Thank you for the push. Microscope out tomorrow. Gulp? Then I need to learn how to put them back. Double gulp.

Edited January 23 by rossjackson01
More information

[watchweasol]

Hi Ross look at it this way , what have you to loose nothing and every thing to gain in as much you are learning a new skill and if you manage it a repaired/useable balance.  Now that skill is transferable to any hairspring.  Read up on Henry B  Fried on fixing hairsprings understand his theories, practise on old ones first. Confidence. Ross.

[nevenbekriev]

Ross, taking balance out of the bridge and putting it back is something simple. Why microscope? Just a small screwdriver needed to open the regulator and untighten the screw of stud carrier. Then the balance gets out, piece of cake.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Never. Wow! Double Wow.

I have 17 knackered balances. All from ebay purchases over the last 2 years. Buying very cheap movements for spares has resulted in many extra parts, and just as many broken parts.  I've tended to buy for the hope of getting a good balance. 9 out of 10 are usually in a poot state. False economy.

Nevenbekriev and Never.

Thank you for the push. Microscope out tomorrow. Gulp? Then I need to learn how to put them back. Double gulp.

You can do it Ross. You understand learning technique i know you do. Yes that was the worst i ever managed to bring back to some form, i have a picture somewhere as it was coming to a finished state. It wasn't perfect by all means and easy to see that it had had some distress, i think there was one slight shallow verical bend that i just couldn't remove but that watch ran quite well with it. Been doing them almost from week one out of necessity and insanity, wierdly i enjoy it which really helps. I use a pair of no 7 tweezers, thats the curved tipped ones and a bent acupuncture needle set into a piece of pegwood or a narrow fitting pinvice ( i call that a pick , the one in the picture i use to twist the hairspring to raise or lower out of flat springs ) mostly. I hold the tweezers very differently to standard practice to get the correct working angle. The bent tweezers help with coming in on top the hairspring to straighten the out of round bends ( these are the bends that make the coils touch together when looking down on the hairspring) Stability is key here, you will noticed massively hand and finger shake without very good grounding of the wrists or palms of the hands. To further the angle of the tweezers and pick they are slid between my ring fingers and index fingers this helps to keep your hands stabilised while manipulating. Start from the inside of the hairspring and work out . With out of round bends find the largest gap ( coil running outwards ) or smallest gap ( coil running inwards ) and work back 90° into the hairspring, this is where the bend begins, this the manipulating point. I always remove the inward bends first otherwise the hairspring coils will come in on themselves and get tangled up. The out of flat bends and twists are another game altogether, these are the ones that raise the hairspring up or down when looking at it from the side. The twists are quite easy but the bends along the height profile of the hairspring are a real pain to fix. But i wouldn't worry about the out of flat for now, there may not even be any. Some of the correcting you might be able to do with it is on the balance and maybe even with it in the watch. A really common issue of the hairspring bunching up can be just one little correction at the stud. Do some research and make a start see where you get with them i have faith in you Ross, learning to fix them can save you a fortune in replacement balances. 

Edited January 23 by Neverenoughwatches

[Nucejoe]

 Unpin the and detach the stud from the spring,  to see how easy the coil will disentangle.

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

22 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 Unpin the and detach the stud from the spring,  to see how easy the coil will disentangle.

 

 

The one on the left looks in better shape, the one on the right might be the regulator pin is too tight on the boot. If i was to do anything with them on the balance i would open up the pin  first so there is no interference from it and the boot.

[rossjackson01]

Good advice from you all. I have a broken spring from one of the first watches I obtained. The spring had snapped at the stud, and it had wound around the cock. I will spend some time and try to straighten it for practice. Looking forward to it ...ish.

I will try viewing with my head magnifier and loupe. Failing that, I will use the microscope.

I think I will be ok. It's the putting back together bit that I am most worried about. Using Mark's maxim. Practice, practice , practice and more practice.

Edited January 24 by rossjackson01
More information

[nevenbekriev]

 

 

Edited January 24 by nevenbekriev

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Good advice from you all. I have a broken spring from one of the first watches I obtained. The spring had snapped at the stud, and it had wound around the cock. I will spend some time and try to straighten it for practice. Looking forward to it ...ish.

I will try viewing with my head magnifier and loupe. Failing that, I will use the microscope.

I think I will be ok. It's the putting back together bit that I am most worried about. Using Mark's maxim. Practice, practice , practice and more practice.

Unless you have the eyesight of a 10 year old Ross you will need a microscope to fully see what you are doing. Personally i would have a go midafternoon by which time your blood sugar will be steady a couple of hours after dinner and well past any morning coffee you might have had. But play with the time you start as we are all made and react differently to food. But yes you must practise a lot on old springs. With me the anchor tweezers fit to my left hand,  the grip i have shown gives me really good control between thumb and index finger ( correction on the grip in previous post the tweezers are held between middle finger and wedding ring finger ) . The anchoring  tweezer is the one that holds the hairspring, holding it this way gives me great stability, good approach angle and i can concentrate without having to worry about the tweezers slipping out of my grip. The right hand holds the manipulating pick, i haven't shown that yet but its basically an acupuncture needle with a small 90° bend at the tip. This is used to gently tease or stroke the bends out or in to improve and equalise the coil shapes.

2 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Ne

 

 

Nev shows great ability Ross, after all the corrections and the hairspring is back to shape, it can end up being quite battered and bruised with visible dings and dents along its length from all the corrections especially with something that started this bad. The important thing is how it performs in the watch, if it still has it's length, doesn't catch on anything through all watch positions and is concentric while oscillating so that the coils dont toucheach other, fits and works well between the regulator pins then thats all you can ask from a badly mangled spring.

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Ross, taking balance out of the bridge and putting it back is something simple. Why microscope? Just a small screwdriver needed to open the regulator and untighten the screw of stud carrier. Then the balance gets out, piece of cake.

On 12/23/2023 at 12:56 PM, rossjackson01 said:

Hairspring and balance cock

one of the basic things when servicing a watch is separating the balance from the watch. But all of these watches seem to have the balance bridge still attached weird? if this was a newer watch with the etachron system I could see why you keep it attached but to remove it from the bridge is so simple and no you don't need a microscope.

 

 

[Nucejoe]

As said in case of flat spring,  detaching the spring form the COCK & BALANCE  is best way to go, gives you more control over the work and access to both sides of the coil ...... and more.

Eatchron is more involved but even that is worth the trouble  cuz  you get better results. 

Replacement with new balance complete is the best option if the watch is worth the cost.

 

 

[rossjackson01]

JohnR275 said "Ross, taking balance out of the bridge and putting it back is something simple. Why microscope? Just a small screwdriver needed to open the regulator and untighten the screw of stud carrier. Then the balance gets out, piece of cake".

 

I agree John. I use the head magnifier to work on the watch and will do so to remove the balance and hairspring collet.

I am used to the head magnifier and use it all the time.  Normal vision at 3 - 5 inches is complete blur. I would use the magnifier  level of magnification to work on the hairspring. However, I may use the microscope when needed. It's something I now have, and it may increase my skill level.

My eyesight is Ok for distance. Can see movement 400 - 500 yards away.

 

Comment.

So good this forum. All I get is help and encouragement.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

JohnR275 said "Ross, taking balance out of the bridge and putting it back is something simple. Why microscope? Just a small screwdriver needed to open the regulator and untighten the screw of stud carrier. Then the balance gets out, piece of cake".

 

I agree John. I use the head magnifier to work on the watch and will do so to remove the balance and hairspring collet.

I am used to the head magnifier and use it all the time.  Normal vision at 3 - 5 inches is complete blur. I would use the magnifier  level of magnification to work on the hairspring. However, I may use the microscope when needed. It's something I now have, and it may increase my skill level.

My eyesight is Ok for distance. Can see movement 400 - 500 yards away.

 

Comment.

So good this forum. All I get is help and encouragement.

I can't imagine trying to straighten out a wristwatch hairspring without a microscope, x10 seems just perfect, maybe thats just me. I've not seen it mentioned yet but when you remove the hairspring from the balance, remember to mark the stud's position on the balance wheel so the hairspring fits back on the balance in the same position.