my grandfather clock...needs some bushing work

[LittleWatchShop]

Here is my clock inherited from inlaws. It has been running since 1977. Recently, the chime has been stopping mid chime. Upon investigation, I see that the lever that catches the pin on the warning pin just barely catches the pin when the cam comes around. This is because the bushings on several wheels and wor so that a slight offset is enough for the pin to get caught and stop.

So, I am gonna have to tear this down and bush those bearings. Never done that.  Well, let me say I have not done it in the official correct way. I have a large selection of clock bushings but no bushing tool.

Looking at the two chime cams...large and small. What are their names?

[watchweasol]

Hi LWS. You don’t need a bushing tool. ( 1,250,00 £) worth they ca. e done by hand, I cut/ drill them out on a press  and Broach to size then use the bench drill to press them in.  Always try the bushed wheel with its adjacent wheel in the plate alone to check the depthing.

The big cam top right is the snail cam  never worked on Jauch clock,  a bit of an odd front plate setup.

 

From what I can gather Jauch are now obsolete and are replaced by Hermle movements  I think yours is a JAUCH77

 

[LittleWatchShop]

18 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi LWS. You don’t need a bushing tool. ( 1,250,00 £) worth they ca. e done by hand, I cut/ drill them out on a press  and Broach to size then use the bench drill to press them in.  Always try the bushed wheel with its adjacent wheel in the plate alone to check the depthing.

The big cam top right is the snail cam  never worked on Jauch clock,  a bit of an odd front plate setup.

 

From what I can gather Jauch are now obsolete and are replaced by Hermle movements  I think yours is a JAUCH77

 

One concern I have is the quality of my drill press--runout. So I will have to do some serious pondering. Another interesting challenge for me...and maybe some more tools he he he!!

[watchweasol]

They can also be drilled out in the lathe if you have a faceplate ti mount and centre the full plate on and a drill mounted in the tail stock

[LittleWatchShop]

18 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

They can also be drilled out in the lathe if you have a faceplate ti mount and centre the full plate on and a drill mounted in the tail stock

I do have a faceplate tool for my WW lathe, but the clockbplate is too big.

[LittleWatchShop]

Been watching videos and looking at tools. That Bergeon tool is, ooh la la...nice!!

[oldhippy]

Bushing tool is a waste of money. Buy yourself a good set of clock brooches, if you get the cheep ones they do not keep there cutting edge. What ever you do never ever use power tools to drill out the holes. When it comes to bushing correctly you should brooch as little of the original plate brass as possible. If you make a mistake with power tools you have had it, they run too fast. Bushing by had is slow and you have complete control.  

[watchweasol]

Hi. Ihave used both methods and both require great care, hand bushing requires you to centralise the hole by filing the side opposite the wear before broaching, using the vertical drill on low speed or turning the chuck by hand to make the cut works also, if using the drill method always measure the size if the bush first and drill undersize then hand broach to fit then press in the bush which also will require broaching to fit the pivot. Once done fit the pivot/wheel into the bush it should not lean out from the vertical more than 5 degrees.which should give you the required side shake.

[oldhippy]

You do not need to file the hole the brooch finds the center of the hole, if you watch when first turning by hand the brooch will not cut into the hole until it is centered. Watching so called clock repairers on youtube getting out there black and decker drills to rebush a clock, videos like that should be banned. I can assure you that is not the correct way to bush a clock, some will say is quicker but you will never get the proper result. 

 

If you can make your own bushings you won't need to brooch a bush to fit the pivot. You should have the correct skill with the made part. 

[LittleWatchShop]

The benefits of the Bergeon tool are obvious: vertical alignment, centering, controlled manual cutting.  If I were a business doing this kind of work on a daily basis, I would buy it.  Alas, I will rarely need to replace bushings.

The drill press provides the vertical alignment feature as well as the ability to do the centering, but I can see the downside of a bit spinning out of control.  This can be mitigated by putting it in manual mode, or running the motor slowly.

I have some old movements from India that I may practice on.

[oldhippy]

You try invisible bushing with that Bergeon tool  and ready made bushes and it can't be done. They might be good enough for those that just repair run of the mill movements, but you try it on 200 year old Longcase or a bracket clock or even a nice carrage clock and you will have unsightly re-bushing and it looks a mess.  

[Waggy]

35 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Watching so called clock repairers on youtube getting out there black and decker drills to rebush a clock, videos like that should be banned. I can assure you that is not the correct way to bush a clock, some will say is quicker but you will never get the proper result. 

Can you provide some good YouTube examples of how it should be done using cutting broach etc, thanks.

[LittleWatchShop]

2 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Can you provide some good YouTube examples of how it should be done using cutting broach etc, thanks.

I watched this one the other day. Cannot make a judgement.

[oldhippy]

I jumped in when he started to brooch to insert a new bush, which was a joke he is broaching the wrong way, you brooch from the inside out, he is doing it from the outside in. I stopped after that because that was enough for me. 

I will see what I can find. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by oldhippy

[HectorLooi]

35 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

I jumped in when he started to brooch to insert a new bush, which was a joke he is broaching the wrong way, you brooch from the inside out, he is doing it from the outside in. I stopped after that because that was enough for me. 

I will see what I can find. 

Actually he did insert the bushing correctly from the inside out. At around 36:00, he started to broach from the inside, creating a "diabolo" shaped hole. Then he inserted the bush from the inside. If a viewer is not observant, he may end up learning something wrong.

Actually, I have watched a few videos where the bush was driven in from the wrong side. As no surprise, Scottie's Clock World, did it wrongly. But horrors, Tommy Jobson also did it wrongly in one video.

[oldhippy]

He is still wrong you should only brooch from one way and that is from the inside out. The brooch is tapered and so should be the bush. Do it both ways defeats the object of the bush having a snug fit. 

 

So far looking on Youtube what I have watched they all have faults. 

[watchweasol]

Having watched the video , the man’s a clown , never once checked the bush and hole which required him to try and close the hole ti fit the bush ans then peen the plate with a punch at that point I quit . What ever you. Do do not follow that man’s example. When hand bushing or machine bushing the check the fit of the bush frequently untill it stands up but not slip into the hole at that point it will press in friction tight, if fitted fron the inside flush with the plate any excess in the front plate can be either filed off (protecting the plate) if it’s a flush fit or an oil sink created. In either case it should be invisible.

regarding how to bush, manual or machine, The Luddites broke the machines but it did not halt progress.  Jenner built bigger and better machines that were more efficient. The same with clocks and watches the likes of timex, and quartz watches are successful because of development. No matter what you think of them they are part of the evolution of the industry and best embraced as that than cast aside as rubbish. If our forbears had thought like Luddites we would still be using Sundials.

 

 

[transporter]

Ok here’s my two penneth worth. I do agree with Oldhippy but also disagree on some aspects here. 
The video, yes I agree bad work, also using power tools again they are way to fast etc.

With regard to the bergeon set up I do have to disagree there, the system is great, reamers, bushes, chamfering bits, the whole lot works together,as for invisible bushes, I’ve just finished a bracket clock and if you look at the inter wheel on the strike side ( the one in line with the bracket on the right )
That bush is a bergeon graded bush fitted using the bergeon tool.

Now I may be misunderstanding what OldHippy means by invisible bushing but my understanding is to blend the bush into the plate so that the join between new bush and old plate is not visible. Please correct me if I’m wrong as I know oldhippy has many more years knowledge and experience than my self.

For the OP I was taught to broach/file in the opposite direction to the wear in the pivot hole the same amount as the wear, then centre the hole on the bushing tool then ream the hole to slighty under the bush size ( which is easy using the bergeon system if graded bushes and the bushing tool).

once reamed out you press fit the new bush from the rear and test fit the arbor assembly into the hole , the check between plates.

once checked by itself I also check with the next wheel either side for correct depthing just incase.

[oldhippy]

That looks good, the only thing to me that makes it looks odd and I only can see the center wheel pivot is the one you bushed the pivot is protruding out more then the center pivot. but I'm nit picking But you also have the right colour brass. With very old clocks colour is just as important. Some times cast brass should be used, it can be made really hard and wears so much longer. 

That movement has a nice apron so it must be a verge with the original pendulum. You are correct by the way about invisible bushing.  

[JohnR725]

On 7/9/2023 at 9:52 AM, LittleWatchShop said:

So, I am gonna have to tear this down and bush those bearings. Never done that.  Well, let me say I have not done it in the official correct way. I have a large selection of clock bushings but no bushing tool.

oh just a couple of things to remember. Often times people go bushing crazy because they perceive the hole is too big. As long as the hole is round it's okay even if it does seem to big. then typically anyone who's primarily in watches who replace bushings in a clock will make the holes way too small for the pivots and the clock won't even run at all. Just remember clocks need more breathing room for the pivots if you expect the clock to run

[transporter]

9 hours ago, oldhippy said:

That looks good, the only thing to me that makes it looks odd and I only can see the center wheel pivot is the one you bushed the pivot is protruding out more then the center pivot. but I'm nit picking But you also have the right colour brass. With very old clocks colour is just as important. Some times cast brass should be used, it can be made really hard and wears so much longer. 

That movement has a nice apron so it must be a verge with the original pendulum. You are correct by the way about invisible bushing.  

Thanks for the comments there, some people can get a bit funny if someone disagrees with what they say.

yes thee pivot does protrude a little bit further than what I would say is ideal , but it’s the same as it was to begin with so I left alone. The brass colour was a good match and the join is invisible between plate and bush.

A verge, and original, the pallet/paddle arbor only has one pivot, the other end of the arbor has the V block that sits in a brass cut out.

 

[oldhippy]

The V block is sometimes called a knife edge. Did you know if you burnish the knife edge it can sometimes improve the action. 

 

JohnR725

Clocks that have lantern pinions are the ones that need to be loose fitting  as they can tolerate wear you find these mostly in American clocks but there are German and some English clocks too. It is also most impotent to check all pivots for wear. Clocks with fixed pinions are more problematic because they can't tolerate very much wear and are likely to be the cause of the trouble of the movement misbehaving, it is best to rebush then to skip because it is likely to cause trouble in time.