Why am I seeing deposits around jewel holes after cleaning ?

[mikepilk]

My cleaning schedule is -

1.   If the parts are really dirty, do a pre-clean in a pot of naphtha with a small brush.

2.   Peg jewel holes

3.   5 mins in Elma WF Pro in ultrasonic (60W at 40C)

4.   3 mins in Jar 1 of Elma Suprol Pro rinse in ultrasonic 

5.    3 mins in Jar 2 of Elma Suprol Pro rinse in ultrasonic 

6.   30s IPA rinse

7.    Blow dry with hairdryer.

After every clean I notice small deposits around the jewel holes - everything else looks clean. 
The deposits are not there when they go in to the ultrasonic as I pre-cleaned with naphtha.

This happens on every movement. Today I changed rinse solutions, so there shouldn't be a contamination problem.

I rub them off with pegwood and IPA, but I'd rather they weren't there. 

Could it be Fixodrop residue? 

 

 

 

 

 

[HectorLooi]

I used to get this problem too. It happens when not using a watch cleaning machine which spin dries after each solution. I think a small amount of cleaning solution with dissolved lubricants remains in the jewel holes at the end of the 2nd rinse and when it dries, it creeps out of the hole and leaves a ring of oil. 

Now when I use the ultrasonic, I put the basket in a specially designed bottle with a bolt coming out of the lid, chuck it in my cordless drill and spin dry. I find that I don't get this problem anymore.

[mikepilk]

51 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

 I think a small amount of cleaning solution with dissolved lubricants remains in the jewel holes at the end of the 2nd rinse and when it dries, it creeps out of the hole and leaves a ring of oil. 

That sounds very plausible. After the second rinse, I'll try using a puffer to blow any solution from the jewel holes.

[Malocchio]

I always blow dry parts with a puffer immediately after lifting from liquid. I just built a diy rotating cleaning machine and bought L&R 566 and no3, looking forward to see the results. I have used ultrasonic and hand cleaning so far.  I suspect too that spinning after rinsing is the key. If you just let the parts dry, all the dirt sticks to parts again. Btw, took a sniff of that 566. Hardly any smell, which is nice. Very mild ammonia smell if you sniff very closely. It's not ammoniated but it was some other smelly compound.

[JohnR725]

Interesting other than the solutions and the amount of time basically more or less identical to what I used to do at home. I was using L&R products I would go 4 minutes typically in the cleaner and Longer in the rinse as I didn't consider the rinse harmful like the cleaning fluid if you go too long.

You didn't mention one aspect? The aspect was in between the fluids what do you do just go from one fluid directly to the other or anything else? Because I only had one beaker and I need the poor the solution back into the containers they kept the fluids in I would put all the parts on a paper towel and move my fluids around and then put them back into the beaker.

I was looking at what Omega was recommending which is basically the same fluids the same amount of time except of course they're using machines that are expensive and yes between every single fluid they spin for a couple of minutes to remove the fluids.

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

40C)

Omega's recommendation for everything related to the cleaning fluids is room temperature. The spec sheet for the cleaning fluid says it will work at elevated temperatures but it also mentions the flashpoint is between 30° and 34° C. Then no it does not say what they consider elevated temperature but above the flashpoint I wonder if that could be an issue?

I would be curious if you ran a test plate through after the first cleaning look and see if you have the residue?

 

 

 

[mikepilk]

21 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

You didn't mention one aspect? The aspect was in between the fluids what do you do just go from one fluid directly to the other or anything else? Because I only had one beaker and I need the poor the solution back into the containers they kept the fluids in I would put all the parts on a paper towel and move my fluids around and then put them back into the beaker.

I have separate jars for all the fluids - just glass jam jars, as I can keep the lids on to reduce smell. I did use pyrex beakers, but I seem to get good cleaning in the glass jars.

I put the small parts in mesh containers, sat in plastic trays which makes it easy to lift the parts in and out of the fluids.  When I lift the trays out, I blow them with a puffer and hairdryer to try and blast as much fluid off as possible, before the next jar.

 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

just glass jam jars, as I can keep the lids on to reduce smell. I did use pyrex beakers, but I seem to get good cleaning in the glass jars.

Didn't really care about whether you using a jar for a beaker. When I was curious about the answer the question was in between did you do anything to remove fluid which you're doing I still find it interesting. It be interesting to take a plate and just run it to the cleaning and then don't run it through the rents and see if you have the residue.

 

[mikepilk]

I just did an experiment (I love an experiment )  @HectorLooi to test your theory about fluid remaining in the jewel holes.

I put the mainplate back in to the rinse for a minute, blow dry with a puffer, then 30s IPA.
Result = small deposits around the jewel holes.

I then repeated, but after the 1 min rinse, I made sure I blew the solution from the jewel holes. Result = almost clean jewels.
So slight contamination in the rinse, and IPA ?

So I used fresh IPA for another 30s = clean shiny jewels. 

I wouldn't expect fresh Elma Suprol Pro rinse to leave a residue, so I just put a large puddle on a mirror and evaporated it off. 
Result - I can't see any residue. 
I then repeated with Elma WF Pro cleaner - as you can see, it leaves an oily residue which beads-up like the deposits on the jewels.

Conclusion. 

The deposits are not due to pure rinse solution.
Maybe the cleaner solution, or a rinse (contaminated with cleaner) is remaining in the holes and only gets cleaned out in the IPA.  It's only the small jewel holes where I see the problem. The larger jewels where the solution is unlikely to remain don't show the problem.

So from now on, I'll make sure the jewel holes are blown clear after each step, and change my IPA more frequently 

 

[HectorLooi]

The strange thing is, my mentor also uses L&R #111 and #3 rinsing solution in an ultrasound without spin drying, but he doesn't experience any problems.

The only thing he does differently from me is that he dries the parts after the final rinse in a heater set at 80°C.

Maybe the residues that we see are just the less volatile components of the cleaning solution, like oleic acid.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I then repeated with Elma WF Pro cleaner - as you can see, it leaves an oily residue which beads-up like the deposits on the jewels.

I use the ammoniated version of this and also get residue left behind and sometimes beading forming on the plates

[nickelsilver]

This is why most cleaning machines run for several minutes with agitation in the rinses (the cleaner as well), it does take some time to really get in there properly. And the rinse has to be clean, especially the last one. I've mentioned before my old machine that actually distills alcohol, so the rinse is always perfectly clean. Great machine, but at 60 years old I moved to a modern Greiner; with that machine, with 1 cleaning and 3 rinse baths, I change the cleaner and last rinse every 10 or so watches. If I go much beyond that I start to see residues, and I don't like to think of the residue that was there before it became visible. Of course this is for paying customers and the #1 goal is for them to be happy and the watch not come back. I shudder when I think of the many solutions we'd use when I worked in a job(sweat)shop when in school.

[Jon]

I've found the same drops around jewel holes when I haven't spun off the cleaner and rinses properly using an old Elma rotary machine, so as others have said, it looks like cleaner/rinse creeping out of the hole. I really give the basket a pretty fast spin to make sure most of the fluid is gone before the basket goes into the next jar

4 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

This is why most cleaning machines run for several minutes with agitation in the rinses (the cleaner as well), it does take some time to really get in there properly. And the rinse has to be clean, especially the last one. I've mentioned before my old machine that actually distills alcohol, so the rinse is always perfectly clean. Great machine, but at 60 years old I moved to a modern Greiner; with that machine, with 1 cleaning and 3 rinse baths, I change the cleaner and last rinse every 10 or so watches. If I go much beyond that I start to see residues, and I don't like to think of the residue that was there before it became visible. Of course this is for paying customers and the #1 goal is for them to be happy and the watch not come back. I shudder when I think of the many solutions we'd use when I worked in a job(sweat)shop when in school.

What fluids do you use @nickelsilver? That's not many watches per jar of cleaner. I get close to 30 watches before thinking about changing the cleaner, but it's not a hard and fast rule, as it depends on how dirty the cleaner and rinse get. Judging the rinse is easy by the colour it goes

Edited June 14, 2023 by Jon

[nickelsilver]

5 hours ago, Jon said:

 

What fluids do you use @nickelsilver? That's not many watches per jar of cleaner. I get close to 30 watches before thinking about changing the cleaner, but it's not a hard and fast rule, as it depends on how dirty the cleaner and rinse get. Judging the rinse is easy by the colour it goes

I use the Greiner cleaner WF5 and rinse S-3, which seem really similar to L&R 111 and their rinse (which is what even some Swiss firms use in after sales service- it's good too!). I think they cost about the same, the cleaner is 65 francs and the rinse 75 for 5 liters.

 

Sometimes I go to 15, depends on what's gone through it and how long it's been in the machine- which is a factor too. But it costs me about 14 bucks to do the change, which is like 0.5% of what I make on a dozen watches, so quite cheap insurance that all's well. I have a feeling I could keep going with the cleaner and just change the rinse, but can't be bothered to try and see what the results are, haha.

 

So it's actually 1st rinse gets discarded, 2nd goes to 1st, 3rd to second, and the first becomes the new 4th.

Edited June 14, 2023 by nickelsilver

[Jon]

4 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

But it costs me about 14 bucks to do the change, which is like 0.5% of what I make on a dozen watches, so quite cheap insurance that all's well. I have a feeling I could keep going with the cleaner and just change the rinse, but can be bothered to try and see what the results are, haha.

 

So it's actually 1st rinse gets discarded, 2nd goes to 1st, 3rd to second, and the first becomes the new 4th.

That's good thinking, as it is a small amount per watch and as you say, no point in seeing when it stops working. 

I do the same changes to the rinse jars as you, but just use two, so two goes to one and the last jar gets a refill

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

sometimes beading forming on the plates

You don't have a picture of this or maybe a better description?

7 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

This is why most cleaning machines run for several minutes with agitation in the rinses (the cleaner as well),

I was thinking about this I still find it strange that I don't remember residue when I was cleaning watches at home. Fortunately now I don't clean the watches at home I just go to work and Run them through the expense of cleaning machine there.

It was thinking about the spinning cycles of the machines is it really necessary? Then I went to this site they make two machines one of them's nice it spins everything has ultrasonic etc. but this machine caught my eye. If you look they have a couple of videos of how it works in notice that there is no spinning other than the final drying. 

http://lititzpp.com/matador.php

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

I have had this same phenomenon with #566 and #3 rinse in my ultrasonic, but I can't remember if I've seen it recently.

I've started being much more careful about pre-cleaning, as well as letting the parts drain and the baskets blot on a paper towel between jars, so I'll check next time I wash parts and let you know what I see.

[mikepilk]

8 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

I have had this same phenomenon with #566 and #3 rinse in my ultrasonic, but I can't remember if I've seen it recently.

I've started being much more careful about pre-cleaning, as well as letting the parts drain and the baskets blot on a paper towel between jars, so I'll check next time I wash parts and let you know what I see.

Blowing the fluid out of the jewel holes after each step with a puffer seems the cure

[Boydie]

Thanks Mike for this post! I have the same issues, this has given me lots of ideas. How is your puffing between steps working out?

 

ta, 

B

[mikepilk]

2 hours ago, Boydie said:

Thanks Mike for this post! I have the same issues, this has given me lots of ideas. How is your puffing between steps working out?

It seems to have solved the problem. That and making sure the IPA is clean.

[Boydie]

Thanks! I found that any residue left on parts easily came off with IPA on microfibre micro swabs, just wiped across the surface lifted anything off.  Ta.

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, Boydie said:

Thanks! I found that any residue left on parts easily came off with IPA on microfibre micro swabs, just wiped across the surface lifted anything off.  Ta.

That's what I did.

[Mattutron]

On 6/13/2023 at 11:59 AM, HectorLooi said:

Now when I use the ultrasonic, I put the basket in a specially designed bottle with a bolt coming out of the lid, chuck it in my cordless drill and spin dry. I find that I don't get this problem anymore.

Hi HectorLooi, would you mind posting a pic of your drying jar? Sounds like a great DIY project.

[HectorLooi]

15 hours ago, Mattutron said:

Hi HectorLooi, would you mind posting a pic of your drying jar? Sounds like a great DIY project.

Here you go.

I used a thin walled plastic bottle to minimize the weight. Then I drilled a hole in the centre of the lid and made a plastic washer and glued it to the underside of the lid to reinforce the lid to reduce wobble. Then I put a M5 bolt through it. All this was done on a lathe to reduce vibrations when the bottle is spun at speeds of about 1000 rpm. The distribution of parts in the basket is already unbalanced, so you wouldn't want a off axis bolt to make ot worse.

The basket came from a jewelry wash bottle from AliExpress. The tiny parts baskets are from Cousins. 

After each ultrasound cycle, the basket is transferred to the spin bottle and spun for around 15 to 20 seconds, then the basket goes into the next bottle of solution. With each spin cycle, I can spin out about 1 ml of solution. This would have either been transferred to the next solution and end up contaminating it or dried up on the watch plates, etc.

I know it can be rather troublesome transferring the basket from bottle to bottle but now the jewels come out squeaky clean. Even the endstones come out clean.

This would probably be replaced in the future with something like what Alex Hamilton showed in his video on a DIY cleaning machine.

[mikepilk]

The plastic baskets I use have a central stem. I give them a twirl by hand, then I blow through the pots with a blower, then a hairdryer to get most of the solution off. I use Elma WF Pro cleaner, which isn't as volatile as the rinse, and takes some drying off. The rinse evaporates off readily with the hairdryer, as does the IPA.

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

23 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

The plastic baskets I use have a central stem. I give them a twirl by hand, then I blow through the pots with a blower, then a hairdryer to get most of the solution off. I use Elma WF Pro cleaner, which isn't as volatile as the rinse, and takes some drying off. The rinse evaporates off readily with the hairdryer, as does the IPA.

 

 

That was the exact method i used mike. Twirling the basket by hand didnt seem that effective at the time but it did work to a point. So i decided to make this up, the difference is night and day, i now have a copy of the steel swiss style baskets and holder on its way. Seller  Info kindly provided by Hector, thanks Hector