Seiko 6309 Skips 2 seconds every 5 seconds?

[Tracy]

My 6309 movement was skping 2 or 3 seconds about every 5 seconds and over a 6 hour time period would run fast several hours. I had just disassembled it for cleaning/oiling and reassembled.

I think I might have put a wheel in incorrectly so I disassembled again and reassembled. I inspected all wheels to make sure that no teeth were missing and when the train bridge was mounted all wheels turned smoothly, I looked closely at the pallet fork and escape wheel and all seemed to be ok.

Ran great (no skipping seconds) for about 10 minutes, THEN started skipping 2 seconds exactly every 5 seconds. This can't be normal because the movement gains several hours after a short time running. I'm about to give up, get a 6309 movement on ebay and start over.

Any advice on something specific that I should check?
Thanks, Tracy

[Nucejoe]

You might have lost shellac off pallets during the clean. 

Are you set up to take a vid of escape wheel when running? 

It will reveal if pallets miss the escape teeth, misaligned pallets, pallet having moved back in fork slots are most probable.

Rgds

 

[watchweasol]

Hi. If you are sure all the wheels are intact, no broken/missing teeth and the pivots are good, the wheels run ok when installed then check the pallets as Joe advised fir loose stones or bent pivot .

[Tracy]

Pallet stones are in place. I powdered down the main spring and the skipping stopped. When I wind the main spring skipping resumes every 5 seconds. I removed the balance and moved the pallet fork by hand and watched the escape wheel and did not see any skips. I can only see one of the pallet stones but it does engauge with the escape wheel. I'm assuming that the other pallet stone is as well because the escape wheel ticks normally when I move the pallet fork by hand?????

I found a pallet fork and bridge on ebay for $18. Should I just get it and swap it into the movement? I included two photos.

 

[RichardHarris123]

Forgive my ignorance but wouldn't a  pallet problem be constant not intermittent?  

[Waggy]

One thing I had was a problem with the leaves which (because there are less teeth) would occur more often, like every 5 seconds. It's easy to focus in the gear teeth and forget about the leaves. Just a suggestion learned the hard way.

I agree that a pallet issue would be all the time or random, not regular like the observed error. 

[JohnR725]

I don't suppose you have a timing machine? Timing machines are really beautiful devices for diagnosing problems like this one perhaps.

Then when it's skipping what does it sound like?

31 minutes ago, Tracy said:

I powdered down the main spring and the skipping stopped. When I wind the main spring skipping resumes every 5 seconds.

One of things always nice in a discussion is to get the background history of the watch like what condition was it in when you received it. Also what did you do to the watch like Did you change or do anything with the mainspring?

 

[Tracy]

Watch was running when I got it. Was not fast. I disembled, cleaned/oiled and reassembled and observed the skipping issue. The parts seemed to be in good shape, no rust/corrosion. Inside the case looked clean. 

Waggy, What are "leaves" on a watch? I am not familiar with the term?

[mikepilk]

It may just be the pic, but are the hairspring coils evenly spaced, and not sticking ? 

[watchweasol]

Hi. The “ leaves”. Are re freed to the pinion leaves or the toothed portion on the pinion

It wold appear that there is somthing amiss withe the escapement as this controls the watch and that will only happen if the fork/ balance do not interact properly. The wheel train an m/spring apply thr power.if all the wheels check out and green barrel and it’s teeth are good then we select with the escapement issue. Remove the fork and have a close inspection and also the balance impulse jewel for cracks bits broken etc. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Tracy said:

Watch was running when I got it. Was not fast. I disembled, cleaned/oiled and reassembled and observed the skipping issue. The parts seemed to be in good shape, no rust/corrosion. Inside the case looked clean.

Answers but not all the answers timing machine you have one? What does it sound like hold the watch to your ear when it's doing its thing does it sound like it's taking normally or does it sound like it's galloping? Then how did you clean the mainspring?

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Waggy said:

One thing I had was a problem with the leaves which (because there are less teeth) would occur more often, like every 5 seconds. 

If a leave corresponds to a five seconds cycle and lets two seconds escape, then you have nailed the location of the fault.  will you  count the leaves and gear teeth and do the calculations? 

2 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Forgive my ignorance but wouldn't a  pallet problem be constant not intermittent?  

Weasol  already pointed out that one, here,

10 hours ago, watchweasol said:

 then check the pallets as Joe advised fir loose stones or bent pivot .

 

[Tracy]

I never listened to the watch, just observed the second hand. I don't have a timing machine, however I did download an app to my phone "Watch Accuarcy Meter" and tried in on a working watch. When I tested the 6309 the line of dots was all over the place and the beat rate and beat error numbers never settled down to get a reading.

I did not clean the mainspring as putting it back into the barrel is above my pay grade (I don't have the tool to wind the spring).

 

I removed the pallett/bridge and inspected the escape wheel and found the problem. The escape wheel is bent. One side is slightly "up" from the other side. So every 5 seconds the pallett stones were not engaging with the escape wheel teeth.

The pivots on the escape wheel shaft appear to be ok. Can I just bend the high side of the escape wheel so that it is inline with the other side (in other words, "flat" and 90 deg to the shaft)????????

or should I try to find a new/used on on ebay?

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Tracy said:

Can I just bend the high side of the escape wheel so that it is inline with the other side (in other words, "flat" and 90 deg to the shaft)????????

or should I try to find a new/used on on ebay?

Escape wheel must be loose to tilt, to fix it on the arbour, you need to seperate the wheel from the arbour, then must peen the center hole and refit it back on the arbour, you need a staking set for the task.

A bodge fix is to glue the wheel and arbour together, must be careful and do this neat, be careful the glue might spread and get to pivots or pinion.

Most imporatantly escape wheel must be positioned level with pallet stones.

presumably these pallet are adjusted so might not be another fork-pallets.

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by Nucejoe

[LittleWatchShop]

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

It may just be the pic, but are the hairspring coils evenly spaced, and not sticking ? 

>>ignore my comment...missed the bent escape wheel post<<

Plausible.  Perhaps magnetized.  On each oscillation, sometimes a pair of the coil sticks and then breaks loose on another oscillation.  This could speed the watch up.

Demagnetize the watch and the problem may go away!!

Edited June 7, 2023 by LittleWatchShop

[watchweasol]

You say the wheel is bent up , is it loose on the arbour if not it’s a case of putting it in a staking tool and flattening out the wheel so that it locks properly with green fork if o staking tool or block is available use your tweezers ad gently coax it back flat No sharp bends or twists ease it by degrees.

 

[Tracy]

The wheel in not loose as far as I can tell. If I could remove the arbor and lay the wheel on a flat surface one half of it would be higher (bent up) than  the other. I am going to drill a hole in a flat piece of hardwood, place the wheel shaft in the hole and push down on the bent up part of the wheel. As a backup plan I found a pallet fork, escape wheel on ebay for $18 (coming from Ukraine). 

I did demagnetize the watch and no change. I have two vintage demagnetizers (see photos). The smaller one works really well. The larger demagnetizer is a Boettger's Watch and Tool Demagnetizer (circa 1900) and can use either DC or AC current. At this time Edson and Westinghouse were battling out if DC or AC current should be used to electrify cities. The Boettger Demagnetizer gave consumers the choice to use either type of current. Both of these tools are an electrical hazard when plugged in because they have exposed 120v terminals/wires (no UL certifications back then).

[Nucejoe]

 Escape wheel is a percision wheel which is to distribute five timely and equally strong  impulses into the rest of the escapement. 

Lucky a new one is on its way, once installed  your watch will  be running happy again. 

Home made wooden tool and a bent escape wheel . 

Good luck pal.

[watchweasol]

worth a try for the experience. Just stroke it flat no heavy hands across the raised section holding the other side flat on the block

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

 Escape wheel is a percision wheel which is to distribute five timely and equally strong  impulses into the rest of the escapement. 

Lucky a new one is on its way, once installed  your watch will  be running happy again. 

Home made wooden tool and a bent escape wheel . 

Good luck pal.

I tried nickelsilver's method of straightening train wheels on a jewelling tool which worked well.  But this is a thing Joe, a wheel straightener, you ever seen one ?   Not something i would use on an escape wheel unless you want broken teeth on it.

[LittleWatchShop]

Those demagnetizers look like wonderful pieces for a museum.

I do not like those that require you to drag the item through the magnetic field to a significant distance to ensure demagnetization.

[watchweasol]

I think the wheel straightener is an old tool from the past but would work just as well to day as long if done with great care. Stroking them back also works as I have done it before, takes time so don’t rush it.

Don’t forget to check if the wheel is true between center, fit into watch without thr fork and spin the train and watch the wheel edge.

[Neverenoughwatches]

35 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

I think the wheel straightener is an old tool from the past but would work just as well to day as long if done with great care. Stroking them back also works as I have done it before, takes time so don’t rush it.

Don’t forget to check if the wheel is true between center, fit into watch without thr fork and spin the train and watch the wheel edge.

Thanks WW that was something i found elsewhere while looking for a method to straighten an extended pivot 3rd wheel. The device just seems like a nice flat solid wheel clamp to work some clever bending from. I did think at first it could be used as a press if the wheel could be inserted fully by modifying the inside to accommodate the pivot or arbor of the wheel. But I've  noticed a bend has to over corrected to allow for its resistance to return to original shape.

[mikepilk]

A hand holding tool might be useful for this

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

A hand holding tool might be useful for this

Good call mike. The jewelling tool method has the advantage of spinning the wheels to locate bends more easily. Sorry Tracy i seem to have highjacked your original post, i thought a little diversity on straightening wheels might be relevant. I do apologise .