30T2 adjustment of timing washers

[Jon]

On 3/15/2023 at 6:56 PM, mikepilk said:

Where did you buy the timing washers from? I've been searching for wristwatch sized ones for ages. 

I have an Omega T12.6 running +400s/day. The smallest washers I have are for '0 Size' pocket watches. I can use them on larger wristwatches, but on this Omega, they are a bit too big and are catching the mainplate. I can file the edges off, but would like to find some smaller washers.

If you message me your address I'll send you some pairs of timing washers for the correct size movement you have. I've been collecting timing washers whenever they come up for a while now, which is few and far between, so I know how scarce a good selection of washers for various size movement are! I've got a good selection now and they are invaluable in my opinion. I would personally try to re-pin the hairspring, but failing that washers are the way to go.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, praezis said:

repinning is forbidden

not forbidden but just extremely undesirable. It's back to my question of what has changed to the balance wheel that you have to use timing washers.

For instance is your bimetallic balance wheel round? Is amazing how much timekeeping screw up you can have if somebody squeeze the balance wheel and those arms are in just a little bit as opposed to wherever there supposed to be

this comes back to the classic problem of what is the problem and is the repair you're doing the proper way to fix the problem. You may be treating a symptom problem but not the problem itself.

[Jon]

11 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

It's back to my question of what has changed to the balance wheel that you have to use timing washers.

I find, it's past tinkerers that have removed weight from the balance because they didn't quite understand what they were doing. Now the weight has been removed, it needs to replaced, otherwise the balance will move faster and the regulator will need pushing to the slow (-) side.

Before adding or removing anything, I find it a good idea to statically poise the balance to get it true and perfectly weighted. You may even need to bend back into shape a bimetallic balance with cut-outs back into shape first. Once it has been 'balanced', then I have a good start point to then statically poise the balance and add or loose weight accordingly, so my regulator index arm is as close to the centre as possible.

If you rob Peter, Paul wants paying

Edited May 17, 2023 by Jon

[JohnR725]

23 minutes ago, Jon said:

past tinkerers

I wouldn't blame tinkerers or hobbyists basically somebody in the past did something there not supposed to.  It is truly amazing how many watches have bizarre timing issues like a 992 Hamilton came in the other day needed to be regulated but the regulators all the way to the Max it's a railroad grade watch with no mean time screw ups it should have them for railroad grade watch don't know where they are but they're not on the balance wheel anymore. Or even Rolex watches which are not your usual watch for people to play with and they will be grossly out of regulation and employees because somebody had no idea what they're doing.

26 minutes ago, Jon said:

Before adding or removing anything, I find it a good idea to statically poise the balance to get it true and perfectly weighted. You may even need to bend back into shape a bimetallic balance with cut-outs back into shape first. Once it has been 'balanced', then I have a good start point to then statically poise the balance and add or loose weight accordingly, so my regulator index arm is as close to the centre as possible.

yes back to the basics with the balance wheel back the way it's supposed to be.

[Nucejoe]

If you got a good overcoil, don't touch it. 

I have a few unidentified scrap balances which I keep for the screws, no washers so I often end up filing,  I can't recommend filing.

Never seen scrap screws mention on discussions, wonder why, thats a source.

 

 

[ara]

Dear Nucejoe,

May I please write you a private message? I need some Horology related matter that I wanna talk to you about.

[JohnR725]

45 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

I have a few unidentified scrap balances which I keep for the screws

I have the same thing to containers small of miscellaneous balance wheels acquired over time which I basically just used for timing screws. Occasionally may be a roller jewel.

47 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Never seen scrap screws mention on discussions, wonder why, thats a source.

timing screws were available at one time for balance wheels with over coil hairsprings because they hairspring is re-usually available separately. So I have some packets of Hamilton screws I think I have some Elgin screws they were in the look containers labeled as to how much timing and they would change. Or in the case of Elgin I have brand-new shiny gold colored timing screws in a container. When they liquidated the Elgin factory all the material spread out across the countryside so miscellaneous brand-new Elgin stuff purchase surplus a very long time ago. But typically are not going to find miscellaneous timing screws could because some it have to remove him from the balance wheel which be very bad because you want to keep them ideally is matched pairs

14 minutes ago, ara said:

May I please write you a private message? I need some Horology related matter that I wanna talk to you about.

your first posting on the discussion group and that looks very suspicious?

[Nucejoe]

6 hours ago, ara said:

Dear Nucejoe,

May I please write you a private message? I need some Horology related matter that I wanna talk to you 

Doesn't sound dangerous to me.  lol           SOoo , awaiting your PM pal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ara]

My bad pal. I just needed some info and didn't want to start a new topic for that. So I interrupt you conversation. Sorry for that dear fellows! 

 

[nickelsilver]

Every time I check Ebay there's got to be at least 8 offerings of proper timing washer assortments (I only check every now and then though). It's a shame they aren't made anymore, but it's definitely worth having a graded assortment. Just check what range of watch sizes it covers; some are really targeted to wrist watches, some to pocket watches, and some cover both.

[Knebo]

Hello all, 

I'm reactivating this thread for a question that may be stupid, but please indulge me. 

If I want to slow down a watch with timing washers and I want to add a total of 4 washers. How would I ideally distribute them (if poise is currently fine)?

See drawing. Double-washers in two opposing positions, or single washers every 90° of the balance?

Or does it not matter? 

[JohnR725]

30 minutes ago, Knebo said:

See drawing. Double-washers in two opposing positions, or single washers every 90° of the balance?

Or does it not matter? 

ideally you do not want to have double washers under one screw. then as far as poise goes they just have to be opposite of each other. Then if it's a bimetallic balance wheel where you're worried about temperature compensation then you want to keep as close to the base of the arms as possible because adding them farther out will have a more dramatic effect on temperature compensation.

Then I would suggest trying a pair of washers first and seeing the effect. This is because despite the fact they come with exact timing in real life it varies between the watches and you need to see what's actually can happen from your first pair.

[nickelsilver]

I would do the 4 washers over 2 sets of screws. It's more aesthetically pleasing, and in some cases two washers might make the screw stick out too far.

[Knebo]

@JohnR725, @nickelsilver, thank you!

I'll report back when I actually manage to obtain washers and when I try it out. 

Cheers 

[Knebo]

OK! I was able to get a nice set of timing washers from ebay!

And they worked really well. I needed to slow down the movement by about 6min and I put four (=two pairs) of 3-minute washers (rated for the the size of the movement) and it did pretty much exactly that.

On one pair of screws, there were already washers. So I added a second washer on those screws. Maybe not ideal, but it doesn't cause any problems. Poise is ok.. not perfect.. but I had so many issues with the watch that I decided to accept it. It's a 90-year-old watch. Delta is around 40 seconds. 

 

[JohnR725]

21 minutes ago, Knebo said:

It's a 90-year-old watch. Delta is around 40 seconds. 

One of the things that I've been bothered with lately is timekeeping? For instance a 90-year-old pocket watch what so to timekeeping was it supposed to keep? They publish railroad timekeeping but I don't know how well normal non-railroad watches were supposed to keep time. The reason why the question comes up for me is I spend a lot of time at work adjusting watches to keep really really good time  because I have to please my boss where as when the watch was made I have to wonder what kind timekeeping would've been acceptable. After all they typically didn't have timing machines 100 years ago and they were timing and six positions certainly not for the non-railroad grade watch. On the other hand I do get paid by the hour so maybe I shouldn't be concerned of how much time I Spend trying to make everything keep chronometer timekeeping almost.

Citing a Delta of 40 seconds for a 90-year-old watch is quite outstanding.

[mikepilk]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

One of the things that I've been bothered with lately is timekeeping? For instance a 90-year-old pocket watch what so to timekeeping was it supposed to keep? They publish railroad timekeeping

I believe railroad timekeeping was better than 30s per week?

As long as the watches are fully jewelled, I imagine that with a nice big balance, the timekeeping should be pretty good on pocket watches. I have a couple of Waltham Riversides, 17J and a 19J, with overcoil hairsprings. It's years since I cleaned them, but I remember wearing one for a couple of days, and it was running within 2s/day (without me touching the balance wheel weights).