30T2 adjustment of timing washers

[gaber]

Dear All,

Here I'm making a fresh thread to focus the discussion and because the last one was getting too long (see here).

The current issue with this project is that we are running too fast (+240 seconds/day) and after investigating possible causes (magnetism, hairspring fouling, insufficient amplitude, squeezing of the balance wheel), I decided, with the advice of members here, to look into adding timing washers to slow it down.

I found a source of washers online and ordered some.  Meanwhile I have acquired a microscope and now can observe the current state of the balance in closer detail.  I noticed that there are three timing washers installed already in the neighborhood of the balance arm (on each side, making 6 total).  Here are some photos:

You can see the location of the screws with washers installed in the second photo.  Notice from the second photo that they are not installed closest to the arm, as I have seen recommended.  They are installed at the second and third screws, clockwise after the cut in the wheel.

I see two washers on screw 2 (one brass, one lighter colored metal), and one brass washer on the next screw.

One question I have for you, is whether I should add even more washers onto a balance that has already been fitted with washers?

Thanks as always.

[nickelsilver]

No problem fitting more washers. What does your set of washers look like? The old nice sets had different sizes for different sized balances, with an approximate correction per pair of washers, like 30s, 1m, 2m. I know there are few examples available new these days, and some I've seen aren't particularly well graded, so you might need to check the poise (dynamic poise) quickly after each set added.

[gaber]

22 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

No problem fitting more washers. What does your set of washers look like?

Thanks, I don't have the washers yet, but I did not manage to find one of those nice graded sets, so I will have to sift through them.

[mikepilk]

On 1/29/2023 at 4:21 PM, gaber said:

Thanks, I don't have the washers yet, but I did not manage to find one of those nice graded sets, so I will have to sift through them.

Where did you buy the timing washers from? I've been searching for wristwatch sized ones for ages. 

I have an Omega T12.6 running +400s/day. The smallest washers I have are for '0 Size' pocket watches. I can use them on larger wristwatches, but on this Omega, they are a bit too big and are catching the mainplate. I can file the edges off, but would like to find some smaller washers.

[gaber]

12 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Where did you buy the timing washers

I found them online by chance from a place based out of arizona:

https://timesavers.com/i-24049183-timing-washer-144-piece-assortmnet.html

[Canadianwatchmaker]

Hello, just wanted to help. I would recommend, if you have never removed these kind of screws before, if you have some old balances that are broken and do not need, practise on those first, make sure also that your screw drivers are properly sharpened for the right size screws. 

 

Sorry just one more thing to ad, also holding the balance is important , try not to bend the balance , or it will not run true and will require that to be fixed after. The split balance bend easily. If you practise before this you will be reqdy for also. Hope this helps

[JohnR725]

On 3/16/2023 at 12:03 AM, gaber said:

found them online by chance from a place based out of arizona:

notice the description? Their assorted hopefully what they mean is they broke up a set and the set was assorted but each bottle is of one size and/or rate as opposed to assorted mixture in the bottle. tthe reason I ask this if there truly assorted ill make using them really interesting because the washers have to be an exact match here and measuring of these I'm not seeing it can't be done but it's the really don't want to be taking your screws off 1 million times trying a match the washers is usually a limit of how many times the screws were gone off before something undesirable.

Also a tiny pin vice works for taking the screws on an off because they're really tiny to hold onto

[mikepilk]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Also a tiny pin vice works for taking the screws on an off because they're really tiny to hold onto

I use a Balance Screw Holder. The cheap version from Cousins works OK for me £3.80. Or you can buy the Bergeon version £52.70

[oldhippy]

If you are using timing washers you need to have them on the same screws equel on both side of the the balance wheel. Can't you adjust the hairspring to slow it down?  

[mikepilk]

4 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

If you are using timing washers you need to have them on the same screws equel on both side of the the balance wheel. Can't you adjust the hairspring to slow it down?  

Re-pinning the stud can easily lead to disaster (as I recently found out) - one slip of the tweezers and goodbye hairspring. Washers are much safer. 

[oldhippy]

If it was my repair I would re- pin it I have never had any problem you just need to take your time and have a good strong eyeglass. Adding timing washers is not the way to go. 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Adding timing washers is not the way to go. 

one of the problems in a discussion like this is we actually now have two discussions whereas the second discussion should be its own discussion someplace else. Then why is the watch running fast? Is it an issue of just re-pinning the hairspring a lot of vintage watches the hairspring to remove the balance wheel for instance you may have to unpin the hairspring if you want to remove it. Or did someone play with the watch which is typical on vintage watches and other words why are we adding timing washers it's not enough that it's running fast it would help to understand why. then once regressed the problem why then you can look at solutions to the problem. In some instances there may not be any additional hairspring to pin although in this case we want to go fast so that shouldn't be an issue if you want to go slow with no more hairspring that would be an issue.

[mikepilk]

4 hours ago, oldhippy said:

If it was my repair I would re- pin it I have never had any problem you just need to take your time and have a good strong eyeglass. Adding timing washers is not the way to go. 

The last two hairspring I tried to re-pin: the first the spring broke off at the stud (where it had been tweaked a lot) as I pushed the pin out, the second  the tweezers slipped as I pushed the pin in, resulting in the same effect as the first  

Fitting timing washers hasn't caused me problems. 

I agree that re-pinning is a more elegant solution, I just don't have much experience/confidence/luck doing it. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

49 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

The last two hairspring I tried to re-pin: the first the spring broke off at the stud (where it had been tweaked a lot) as I pushed the pin out, the second  the tweezers slipped as I pushed the pin in, resulting in the same effect as the first  

Fitting timing washers hasn't caused me problems. 

I agree that re-pinning is a more elegant solution, I just don't have much experience/confidence/luck doing it. 

That just might prove that I'm crazy then because i love hairspring work. Different length leg tweezers to push the brass pin in making sure the pin has a flat side against the hairspring and taper the correct way round. Don't push the pin home fully until you've had a skeg of E at the hairspring and know its going to hold flat with the balance wheel otherwise it will need tweaking with a twist at the stud afterwards ( which it will anyway ) And a slightly wider tweezer tip to the back of the stud and notched around the protruding hairspring's extra length so it doesn't slip off the stud. Pin with the stud in the cock or set into a studding table like this. Somehow nudging a 500kg universal beam into position seems a tad easier. 

[gaber]

13 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

notice the description? Their assorted hopefully what they mean is they broke up a set and the set was assorted but each bottle is of one size and/or rate as opposed to assorted mixture in the bottle. tthe reason I ask this if there truly assorted ill make using them really interesting because the washers have to be an exact match here and measuring of these I'm not seeing it can't be done but it's the really don't want to be taking your screws off 1 million times trying a match the washers is usually a limit of how many times the screws were gone off before something undesirable.

Also a tiny pin vice works for taking the screws on an off because they're really tiny to hold onto

I received a single glass tube topped with a cork plug.  I had to sort through the contents of the tube to find a matching pair that fit my purposes.

I can see now there is a debate about whether it is better to add timing washers or re-pin the hairspring.  I have never done the latter, but I can report that adding the timing washers was not difficult for me and I am quite pleased with the results.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, gaber said:

I received a single glass tube topped with a cork plug.  I had to sort through the contents of the tube to find a matching pair that fit my purposes.

I can see now there is a debate about whether it is better to add timing washers or re-pin the hairspring.  I have never done the latter, but I can report that adding the timing washers was not difficult for me and I am quite pleased with the results.

I would say its swings and round abouts depending on what you are more comfortable with. Wouldn't adding timing washers also involve poising the balance wheel as well. And if the hairspring has only a very short extra length coming through the stud there may not be enough to slow the timing down. And as Mike says repinning can risk breaking the hairspring, then you have a faster watch or no hairspring at all.

[gaber]

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Wouldn't adding timing washers also involve poising the balance wheel as well.

My understanding here is that adding the washers symmetrically, on opposite ends of the wheel, will not alter the poise as the torques will balance during any repoising.  In other words the moment of inertia is modified, but not the center of mass.

[JohnR725]

11 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Wouldn't adding timing washers also involve poising the balance wheel as well.

 

8 minutes ago, gaber said:

My understanding here is that adding the washers symmetrically, on opposite ends of the wheel, will not alter the poise as the torques will balance during any repoising.

providing you have the proper set of timing washers. In other words all the washers and one bottle are identical then poising is not an issue. They just go on opposite sides of the wheel they will balance out and everything will be fine. Providing there is no problems along the way. Or a bimetallic balance wheel some of them can be super soft and unscrewing and screwing back on screws and how you hold it may be enough to distort your balance wheel. It just depends on whether you have a soft one or not to use had to be really careful when you're doing this same as you need to be careful of the hairspring and not distort it when you're playing with the balance wheel.

[oldhippy]

7 hours ago, mikepilk said:

The last two hairspring I tried to re-pin: the first the spring broke off at the stud (where it had been tweaked a lot) as I pushed the pin out, the second  the tweezers slipped as I pushed the pin in, resulting in the same effect as the first  

Fitting timing washers hasn't caused me problems. 

I agree that re-pinning is a more elegant solution, I just don't have much experience/confidence/luck doing it. 

You have had bad luck, yes it can depend on the hairsprings condition. Get hold of a few old movements and practice on the hairspring removal you will soon get the hang of it. Use a a pair of tweezers with very fine points I used  Dumont tweezers number 5. Good luck.

Providing all the timing washers are all the same in size and weight and the timing screws are all screwed back in at the same depth no  poising is needed. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

36 minutes ago, gaber said:

My understanding here is that adding the washers symmetrically, on opposite ends of the wheel, will not alter the poise as the torques will balance during any repoising.  In other words the moment of inertia is modified, but not the center of mass.

Understood but just thougnt an extra check in case of errors with timing washers. Belt and braces you know

[mikepilk]

9 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 Different length leg tweezers to push the brass pin in making sure the pin has a flat side against the hairspring and taper the correct way round. Don't push the pin home fully until you've had a skeg of E at the hairspring and know its going to hold flat with the balance wheel otherwise it will need tweaking with a twist at the stud afterwards ( which it will anyway ) And a slightly wider tweezer tip to the back of the stud and notched around the protruding hairspring's extra length so it doesn't slip off the stud. Pin with the stud in the cock or set into a studding table like this. Somehow nudging a 500kg universal beam into position seems a tad easier. 

 

All of the above or -

Remove timing screw, add washer, re-insert timing screw 

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

All of the above or -

Remove timing screw, add washer, re-insert timing screw 

I agree absolutely, but you also need the timing washers to do it . I was just documenting how i pin a hairspring. Strange i know but i actually enjoy doing it.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[mikepilk]

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I agree absolutely, i was just documenting how i pin a hairspring. Strange i know but i actually enjoy doing it.

It's my fault really. I didn't bother to make different length tweezers. Next time I will file some tweezers down. As I only have timing washers for small pocket watches, I sometimes have no option but to move the stud.

It also depends on the watch - if it's one where I can always find a new hairspring, I might tweak the stud. But if there's no chance of a hairspring replacement my first choice would be washers.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

It's my fault really. I didn't bother to make different length tweezers. Next time I will file some tweezers down. As I only have timing washers for small pocket watches, I sometimes have no option but to move the stud.

It also depends on the watch - if it's one where I can always find a new hairspring, I might tweak the stud. But if there's no chance of a hairspring replacement my first choice would be washers.

Sounds like a much simpler way of timing i just dont have any washers so i would always attempt to alter the hairspring length if there was enough. I would like to get into timing a raw hairspring so i practice any part of that proceedure whenever possible. Zoned in working at such a fine level of hand movement a lot seems to translate to everything else you do. Your eyesight and hand muscles adjust to it pretty quickly. Spend 4 hours straightening out a hairspring then see how easily and quickly you can remove, oil and refit a cap jewel. 

[praezis]

10 hours ago, gaber said:

I can see now there is a debate about whether it is better to add timing washers or re-pin the hairspring.

That is no question here.
Repinning is possible with flat hairsprings.

The above watch has a Breguet hairspring however, where repinning is forbidden and only use of timing washers is possible.

Frank