citizen NB0040-58E low amplitude

[eprst]

Hello

I have a 5 year old Citizen NB0040-58E Grand Classic, and recently it started to gain over a minute a day, which couldn't be corrected. Timegrapher (tg.jpg) showed amplitude of 150, which is way too low. So I gave it to a local repair shop for an overhaul.

Second attachment shows what I've got back. Amplitude still very low, but I could regulate it to be accurate enough.

Need advice on how to interpret this and what to do. Does it mean watch is broken beyond repair?

Thanks

[Klassiker]

It's very likely that the watch is basically OK and just needs a good clean and some fresh oil. This is a skilled job and takes several hours and a lot of expensive equipment to do properly, so is not cheap. At a rough guess, the watch is worth about the same as the cost of a proper service. Maybe this is why the shop you went to did not do it, but I find it odd that they didn't give you the option. In this condition, the watch will either stop running soon, or keep running and wear itself out.

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, eprst said:

Hello

I have a 5 year old Citizen NB0040-58E Grand Classic, and recently it started to gain over a minute a day, which couldn't be corrected. Timegrapher (tg.jpg) showed amplitude of 150, which is way too low. So I gave it to a local repair shop for an overhaul.

Second attachment shows what I've got back. Amplitude still very low, but I could regulate it to be accurate enough.

Need advice on how to interpret this and what to do. Does it mean watch is broken beyond repair?

Thanks

Eyup fella. What did this local repair shop actually do and charge ?  if you dont mind me asking.

[watchweasol]

Hi The two documents attached will give you an insight as the the timing diagrams and their interpretation in greater depth. This may help you in your diagnosis.  The fact thet the watch is running although not very well would mean as was mentioned probably a good service and may be a new mainspring would bring it up to scratch.

Timing-Machine-Charts (10).PDF Witschi Training Course (1).pdf

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, eprst said:

So I gave it to a local repair shop for an overhaul.

Second attachment shows what I've got back. Amplitude still very low, but I could regulate it to be accurate enough.

Need advice on how to interpret this and what to do. Does it mean watch is broken beyond repair?

This is a bit confusing if you gave it to a shop for an overhaul what exactly did they do anyway?

Then regulating to fix problems that are not regulation problems usually doesn't work

6 hours ago, eprst said:

Citizen NB0040-58E Grand Classic

Then it would be helpful if you gave us the movement number.

 

 

[Nucejoe]

 So were these two tg readouts taken in same movement position and  at same power level ? 

How much did you pay the repair shop? it might give us an idea what work must have been done on the watch or was just  done to your wallet?  and if you  consider these readouts ceredible then perhaps you should take the watch back to the repairman and demand better amplitude. 

Rgds

 

[clockboy]

Looking a the two timegrapher readings it looks like all that has been been changed is an improvement to s/d. As JD correctly states this watch needs a overhaul and service. One side of the escape I suspect is just dirty or lacks lubrication. 

Edited October 29, 2022 by clockboy

[Nucejoe]

The point is ,  if this amplitude is to be regarded as valid,  then other numbers tg shows are invalid , ie; at such low amplitude other values tg shows you are invalid. 

Actually your watch might do good amplitude in several positions and not in the position you took these measurements.

So , will you check the amplitude in several positions as well as visually observe the amplitude of the oscilator.

How is the daily rate on bench and wrist? 

Rgds

 

[clockboy]

An amplitude lower than 200 can never give a consistent performance in all positions.. This watch just needs a service.. 

[Klassiker]

5 hours ago, clockboy said:

As JD correctly states

@jdrichardhasn't been around for a while. Here's hoping that's because he has something better to do, like mending watches, or some other joyful activity!

[jdrichard]

12 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

@jdrichardhasn't been around for a while. Here's hoping that's because he has something better to do, like mending watches, or some other joyful activity!

I have been at the cottage on weekends making watchmaking hard. Back in a week however:)  thanks for missing me.

[eprst]

Hi. Thanks for all the replies!

Movement is probably Miyota 9011. I couldn't find the datasheet, but used lift angle of 51deg, which 9015 is using.

I was charged $150 for service, which was an overhaul and lubrication, I don't have any more details.

The only position I used is screen up. Watch was fully wound.

Now I did 2 more measurements: one yesterday evening, a few hours after writing this post (tg4). And one more today (tg5). As you see, readings have improved dramatically. I didn't change anything! So now I see two options: tg is broken/inconsistent, or watch needed a break-in period after service.

[Nucejoe]

 OP says he could regulate what he got back from the repairman and that it  couldn't be regulated  before.

so I though we probably are not looking at valid numbers here which presumably is displayed  by OP's tg. OP can test his tg by  putting a healthy watch on it. 

I don't see what I am missing here @clockboy   I just  don't regard  these number as valid.

Rgds

[Nucejoe]

Numbers can be considered valid now.

Lubricant distribution specially in the escapement ( in particulare  on escape teeth and pallets ) may take a day or two even longer period of watch running. 

Rgds

[Klassiker]

What are the latest developments with your watch @eprst?

230 degrees on a full wind is still on the low side, so I'd be interested to hear if there has been a further improvement.

Re your two possible explanations:

• I'll bet your timegrapher is fine. Are you able to adjust the gain on this model? If you want to check the amplitude to be sure, take the back off and make a slow-mo video of the balance with your phone.
• A break-in period is normal, but that should have happened before the watch left the shop. You can't rely on it. Certainly not to the degree necessary here, or over such an extended time-frame.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 10/29/2022 at 8:13 PM, eprst said:

Hi. Thanks for all the replies!

Movement is probably Miyota 9011. I couldn't find the datasheet, but used lift angle of 51deg, which 9015 is using.

I was charged $150 for service, which was an overhaul and lubrication, I don't have any more details.

The only position I used is screen up. Watch was fully wound.

Now I did 2 more measurements: one yesterday evening, a few hours after writing this post (tg4). And one more today (tg5). As you see, readings have improved dramatically. I didn't change anything! So now I see two options: tg is broken/inconsistent, or watch needed a break-in period after service.

It kind of looks like a settling down of the watch after lubrication. How soon after the shop service were the first tg readings that you posted initially.  That same day ?

[eprst]

@Neverenoughwatches yes, first results were posted the same day. Apparently they serviced the same or the previous day, although it took them 2 weeks overall. Not the greatest service apparently, and they also left quite a lot of dust on the dial. But its hard to get any service for a Japanese movement that will cost less than the watch itself at all!

@Klassiker things improved further a bit and I was able to adjust the gain somewhat. It still depends on the position a lot, but that's normal I guess?
dial up: +5s, 269°
crown up: +15s, 235°
crown right: +6s, 239°
crown left: +20s, 249°
crown down: +13s, 236°
dial down: +1s, 270°

beat error is 0.1ms, line looks very clean

Thanks!

[Neverenoughwatches]

25 minutes ago, eprst said:

@Neverenoughwatches yes, first results were posted the same day. Apparently they serviced the same or the previous day, although it took them 2 weeks overall. Not the greatest service apparently, and they also left quite a lot of dust on the dial. But its hard to get any service for a Japanese movement that will cost less than the watch itself at all!

@Klassiker things improved further a bit and I was able to adjust the gain somewhat. It still depends on the position a lot, but that's normal I guess?
dial up: +5s, 269°
crown up: +15s, 235°
crown right: +6s, 239°
crown left: +20s, 249°
crown down: +13s, 236°
dial down: +1s, 270°

beat error is 0.1ms, line looks very clean

Thanks!

These seem quite reasonable, all  verticals similar with CL a little higher, a little less lock on the escapement ? . A few fortnightly or monthly tg readings would be interesting. What power reserve are you getting ?

[Klassiker]

1 hour ago, eprst said:

dial up: +5s, 269°
crown up: +15s, 235°
crown right: +6s, 239°
crown left: +20s, 249°
crown down: +13s, 236°
dial down: +1s, 270°

beat error is 0.1ms, line looks very clean

These are very acceptable values, and it seems a competent service was performed after all. If you are confident that your first set of measurements, immediately following the service, were accurate, then I repeat what I said before. The watch should never have left the shop like that. Any running in should have taken place before giving the watch back and charging you. Two weeks is relatively quick, and 150 USD a resonable charge for a full service.

[eprst]

Reviving this thread, about 1 year later:

dial up: +15s, 248°
crown up: -10s, 200°
crown right: +8s, 225°
crown left: +3s, 200°
crown down: +12s, 230°
dial down +8s, 212°

beat error 0.2ms, line clean in some positions and double tracks in some others. Numbers take a long time to settle, and sometimes go -45s → +8s and 164° → 212° after a few minutes.

not sure if it makes sense to service again

[Klassiker]

35 minutes ago, eprst said:

not sure if it makes sense to service again

Don't take it to the place you went to last time. Do it yourself if you want the practice and are curious to see what improvement you can make. Otherwise, come back to it in a year. I bet it's keeping excellent time when worn.

[Nucejoe]

 I doubt your repairman would get your watch to run as well as when the piece left the company . The level of excellence your watch was regulated to, matches King Seiko. 

 Its a six year old watch so you shouldn't expect to run like new.

Enjoy your watch  in good health.

Rgds

 

 

 

[eprst]

Numbers I posted are after my latest regulation attempt, which I did after watch lost 4 minutes overnight. Now it does about -12s/day. Variation and amplitude don't look good to me, but I don't know what to expect from a 6 year old movement. Replies above tell me that's expected, so I'll go with that.

Is it common for automatic movements to degrade this fast though? Would the same happen to a higher end stuff like GS or Omega?

[Klassiker]

Well, that's very significant new information.

The watch runs with a positional variation of 25 sec. when fully wound,which is what we knew so far. That's also more or less the performance you should expect to see on the wrist, with the automatic winding. So far, so good.

However, if you are seeing -240s overnight, i.e.in 8h (you don't say in which position), then something is seriously wrong. It's also not a problem you can correct by regulating.

A 5yr old movement of reasonable quality should run like new as long as it's been looked after. I have no idea how Citizen movements perform over time. If it is worn out, your best best would be replacement with a new movement.

You have a timegrapher. Let's see the traces in six positions fully wound and after 8h rest.

[eprst]

OK, here are charts in 6 positions when fully wound. Will post another 6 in 8 hours

Apparently runs too fast now, will try to regulate again after this test.

Dial up:

Crown up:

Crown right:

Crown left:

Crown down:

Dial down: