What would be the best basis for hairspring manipulation?

[VWatchie]

I have been procrastinating HS-manipulation for the longest having tremendous (too much?) respect for the topic. Anyway, I'm thinking that now that I can replace balance staffs, adjust and replace pallet stones and other fiddly things I really should be mature enough to take on HS-manipulation. And, these days there are quite a few very good YT videos demonstrating hairspring manipulation.

To this end, I have now acquired two Bergeon 7025-6 tweezers.

I got them from https://webshop.tica.dk/en/. I first asked Cousins if they could provide them but within a minute I got the very short and decisive answer "no" without any further explanation. These tweezers were recommended by Kalle Slaap at the YT Chronoglide channel, and I sort of trust the guy (despite him telling us not to use an ultrasonic for watch parts ). Here's the video: Balance spring adjustment in 4 simple steps - a short introduction

So, now to the question of what basis to use to support the HS.

I am considering the Bergeon 30105 but after reading on the forum I'm not so sure. Is the 3.5 mm centre hole of the tool for the collet or is it for the stud? In both cases, the diameter of the hole seems very large. Perhaps I've misunderstood the use of the tool altogether? The tool is shown and recommended in the video I linked to but not really demonstrated. At one point in the video, Kalle places the centre hole of the tool right on top of a drawing of a stud, but he doesn't say that the stud goes into the hole so perhaps it was just a coincidence. It seems he's taking for granted that everyone will understand how to use the Bergeon 30105 hairspring holder.

So, what would be the best basis to use to support the HS when it is manipulated? What do you use?

Edited October 9, 2022 by VWatchie

[gbyleveldt]

You’re gonna laugh at me but I’ve been using a staking block. I’ve been meaning to get a fancy hairspring holder but it slips my mind when I place orders. I’d imagine the collet of the HS goes over the hole? It’s for that reason I’ve cheated with a staking block because it’s full of holes

Edited October 9, 2022 by gbyleveldt

[Delgetti]

I just made me a little piece of thick white paper (1.5cm x 3cm) and fix that with photo stickers over the LED lamp of my iphone ( if it blinds you can reduce light power or use a second paper layer).

This gives me a bright surface. With this setup I can exactly see what I m doing without irritating shadows. 

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

I

So, now to the question of what basis to use to support the HS.

I am considering the Bergeon 30105

I am considering that £72 for a bit of plastic with a hole in is ridiculous! You could drill a hole in a bit of acrylic to do the job.

 I usually work on my mat (a piece of vinyl flooring) -  it has a little "give" in the surface allowing the tweezer tips to dig in a bit. Like @gbyleveldt, I also work on my staking block.

I read a recommendation to use some frosted glass, but I find it too hard - it means that you are working at the very tips of the tweezers, and if they aren't perfect it doesn't work.  Being I home hobbyist, I haven't shelled out on 2 pairs of Bergeon/Dumont tweezers just for hairspring work. I have some cheaper Vetus, which do the job OK. 

[grsnovi]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

And, these days there are quite a few very good YT videos demonstrating hairspring manipulation

And how! Stian posted a new video yesterday (10/8) where he makes short work of manipulating a hs back into useable shape.

[mikepilk]

13 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

And how! Stian posted a new video yesterday (10/8) where he makes short work of manipulating a hs back into useable shape.

I'm not sure that was "short work". It was speeded up video and some of it might not have been shown. That much manipulation takes time. I find that after a while of such concentration, I need to take a break to get relaxed again. If you just plough on, it's so easy to trash the spring.. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by mikepilk

[ManSkirtBrew]

Coincidentally, I just purchased the Dumont version of those tweezers and have a bunch of hairspring work ahead of me.

In addition to Mark's videos on the subject, I just found this Youtube video that I found super useful.

[grsnovi]

48 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

It was speeded up video...

I think this is one of the hidden downfalls of all YT watch repair videos. Some of these guys have such a good "patter" that watching/listening to a 1 hour video can lull you into a false sense that they're able to accomplish what they're showing in the run time of the video.

They are all edited down from the actual time and although I did send Stian a photo of my recently wrecked hs, I didn't ask him how long his manipulation actually took.

[HectorLooi]

9 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I am considering the Bergeon 30105

I think you could easily make something like this yourself from a scrap watch case with a mineral glass crystal. 

[HectorLooi]

Done. One hairspring holder.

[clockboy]

I have always and still do find hairspring manipulating a challenge. However for me working under a microscope with a pin and the Bergeon (7025-6) tweezers has given me the best results. Also study first before moving anything because making as few manipulations as possible is important because the spring will snap.

Edited October 10, 2022 by clockboy

[VWatchie]

14 hours ago, Delgetti said:

I just made me a little piece of thick white paper (1.5cm x 3cm) and fix that with photo stickers over the LED lamp of my iphone ( if it blinds you can reduce light power or use a second paper layer).

This gives me a bright surface. With this setup I can exactly see what I m doing without irritating shadows. 

So, no hole in the paper for the collet or stud? 

14 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I usually work on my mat (a piece of vinyl flooring) -  it has a little "give" in the surface allowing the tweezer tips to dig in a bit. Like @gbyleveldt, I also work on my staking block.

So, do you alternate between the mat and the staking block? Do you place the collet or the stud in a hole in the staking block?

14 hours ago, mikepilk said:

You could drill a hole in a bit of acrylic to do the job.

 

14 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I haven't shelled out on 2 pairs of Bergeon/Dumont tweezers just for hairspring work. I have some cheaper Vetus, which do the job OK. 

It is or can be a very, very expensive hobby, so any tips for saving are much appreciated! There are Chinese copies of the Bergeon tool that cost nothing in comparison but it was convenient to refer to it.

[mikepilk]

32 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

So, no hole in the paper for the collet or stud? 

So, do you alternate between the mat and the staking block? Do you place the collet or the stud in a hole in the staking block?

I always work with the stud facing up, so I don't see the point of the Bergeon tool having a hole - unless it's so that you can put the balance wheel pivot and roller in to the hole then work on the hairspring? - If you watch Kalle's excellent videos on hairspring repair, this is what he's doing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUTvajqeX3U&t=5s , then when he's working on just the hairspring, he's working just on he flat surface.

I've never used a hole. I just have the hairspring sat flat on the mat. Maybe I'm doing it wrong !

I always work under the microscope. I don't think I could do it otherwise - using a loupe with high enough magnification, your head gets in the way of lighting and tools.

If I need to twist the spring, I used 2 pairs of pointed tweezers, and for adjusting the curve, one pair and the tip of an old sharpened oiler.

Edited October 10, 2022 by mikepilk

[VWatchie]

32 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

unless it's so that you can put the balance wheel pivot and roller in to the hole then work on the hairspring?

Perhaps you're on to something! It would be nice to know. Perhaps there's more to find out by Googling it intensely.

 

33 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

If I need to twist the spring, I used 2 pairs of pointed tweezers, and for adjusting the curve, one pair and the tip of an old sharpened oiler.

Yes, that's my impression of how most people do it, so thanks for confirming.

14 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I find that after a while of such concentration, I need to take a break to get relaxed again. If you just plough on, it's so easy to trash the spring.. 

I try to think of delicate work as a kind of meditation. I always try to be aware of and guard my breathing and muscle tension (there's always more to do). If you stop breathing and get tense enough it can really turn into a mess, both the work and the joy of doing it.

[mikepilk]

7 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Perhaps you're on to something! It would be nice to know. Perhaps there's more to find out by Googling it intensely.

No Googling needed, if you watch Kalle Slaaps video (3 videos on hairspring reapair) on Chronoglide Watchmakers (very good channel), it confirms it.

[VWatchie]

Just now, mikepilk said:

No Googling needed, if you watch Kalle Slaaps video (3 videos on hairspring reapair) on Chronoglide Watchmakers (very good channel), it confirms it.

I've seen them but I must have missed that part. Thanks!  

13 hours ago, grsnovi said:

Some of these guys have such a good "patter" that watching/listening to a 1 hour video can lull you into a false sense that they're able to accomplish what they're showing in the run time of the video.

Indeed, and then they have the audacity to charge $300 to $500 for a "simple service" 

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

No Googling needed, if you watch Kalle Slaaps video (3 videos on hairspring reapair) on Chronoglide Watchmakers (very good channel), it confirms it.

Had another look and realised that I didn't see the wood for the trees. Kalle is working with the balance and the hairspring on the tool all the time. It would seem that the actual manipulation (HS removed from the balance) is simply done just beside the centre hole.

An excellent complement to those three videos is the video named Balance spring adjustment in 4 simple steps - a short introduction, also from Chronoglide. That video really made the penny drop for me (after having seen the three other videos).

BTW, the transparent top on the Bergeon 30105 is not made of acrylic but glass. I believe the Chinese copy used by Kalle is acrylic (perhaps mentioned in the video) as it is full of scratches. Not sure what difference it would make though, if any.

3 hours ago, clockboy said:

However for me working under a microscope with a pin and the Bergeon (7025-6) tweezers has given me the best results.

So by "pin" do you mean like an oiler?

[HectorLooi]

A perfect fit for this scrap hairspring from a Slava 2414. Let me try straightening this out and report on its usefulness. 

[gbyleveldt]

6 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

A perfect fit for this scrap hairspring from a Slava 2414. Let me try straightening this out and report on its usefulness. 

I'll start sobbing if I was asked to fix that...

[mikepilk]

3 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

A perfect fit for this scrap hairspring from a Slava 2414. Let me try straightening this out and report on its usefulness. 

Good luck with that !

As mentioned above, the hole in the Bergeon toll is for the balance staff to sit in, it's not meant to hold the collet. On Chronoglide he does all the work on just the hairspring on the flat surface.

[HectorLooi]

I ground off the lugs and put a piece of white paper with concentric circles drawn on it.

When working on hairsprings, the balance staff is removed, so it doesn't make sense to design the hole for the balance staff. And the hole on the Bergeon one is 3.5mm or 4.0mm. This supports my theory that the hole is for the collet to sit in it, to allow the spring to rest flat on the glass. Clock hairspring collets can get really big.

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 10/9/2022 at 5:50 PM, VWatchie said:

I have been procrastinating HS-manipulation for the longest having tremendous (too much?) respect for the topic. Anyway, I'm thinking that now that I can replace balance staffs, adjust and replace pallet stones and other fiddly things I really should be mature enough to take on HS-manipulation. And, these days there are quite a few very good YT videos demonstrating hairspring manipulation.

To this end, I have now acquired two Bergeon 7025-6 tweezers.

I got them from https://webshop.tica.dk/en/. I first asked Cousins if they could provide them but within a minute I got the very short and decisive answer "no" without any further explanation. These tweezers were recommended by Kalle Slaap at the YT Chronoglide channel, and I sort of trust the guy (despite him telling us not to use an ultrasonic for watch parts ). Here's the video: Balance spring adjustment in 4 simple steps - a short introduction

So, now to the question of what basis to use to support the HS.

I am considering the Bergeon 30105 but after reading on the forum I'm not so sure. Is the 3.5 mm centre hole of the tool for the collet or is it for the stud? In both cases, the diameter of the hole seems very large. Perhaps I've misunderstood the use of the tool altogether? The tool is shown and recommended in the video I linked to but not really demonstrated. At one point in the video, Kalle places the centre hole of the tool right on top of a drawing of a stud, but he doesn't say that the stud goes into the hole so perhaps it was just a coincidence. It seems he's taking for granted that everyone will understand how to use the Bergeon 30105 hairspring holder.

So, what would be the best basis to use to support the HS when it is manipulated? What do you use?

Eyup watchie. I bought this same one just a week ago.  Not Bergeon ,just a cheap ebay one for a fiver. The hole is way too large for a stud. I placed the balance wheel into the hole, and manipulated the hairspring while on balance. This just seemed the only way. Have yet to read all of this thread yet to discover otherwise. Also have my fried book on bench practices with me in Rome. Read two and a half hours on HS manipulation on the plane. A few ideas in that book and a diy  tool made from a broach and a sub dial. Will post up some pickies later when I've read through the rest and had breakie . Visiting the Colusseum today two mins walk from our hotel.

On 10/9/2022 at 6:58 PM, gbyleveldt said:

You’re gonna laugh at me but I’ve been using a staking block. I’ve been meaning to get a fancy hairspring holder but it slips my mind when I place orders. I’d imagine the collet of the HS goes over the hole? It’s for that reason I’ve cheated with a staking block because it’s full of holes

My brief trial was placing the balance in the hole. Just the HS and the colet will give more freedom, not tried that as yet but I'm thinking it will jump out of the hole with it being too light and shallow in the hole. I will find out next week, but I wouldn't pay 72 quid for them. It looks almost identical to the one I bought. Mine I think is acylic which I'm thinking will scratch up eventually,the Bergeon may be made of sapphire .

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I wouldn't pay 72 quid for them.

OT, but why start a new thread!?

Thinking a bit about it I believe it would be better to first focus on and assess the usefulness of a tool, and then its price. I was thinking that if we find the price of a tool too steep, beyond our reach, or even offensive it might cloud the judgement of the tool by itself. Once the usefulness of the tool has been assessed it should be weighed to its price, and that weighing will look very different depending on an array of parameters such as if you are a pro or enthusiast, your financial situation, your conditions for being able to make the tool yourself, the time you have available, etc.

Judging by the supply of Chinese watch tools, my impression is that the community of watch repairer enthusiasts is growing. At some point, I believe that Swiss manufacturers of watch tools such as Bergeon, Horotec, Horia, and so on will recognize that there's a lot of new money to be made and adapt to it.

 

[HectorLooi]

So far from working with my homemade hairspring holder last night, having the collet in the hole and the spring flat on the glass is a major advantage. Having the smooth glass surface give a nicer feel when manipulating the spring. Also, with a glass surface, there isn't any shadow to further confuse you.

But I probably need to get my eyes checked. My astigmatism seems to change every few years. And I  am working without my glasses when with the microscope, so there isn't any correction at all. I wonder if there are astigmatism correction lenses for microscopes. 

[VWatchie]

8 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Having the smooth glass surface give a nicer feel when manipulating the spring.

Valuable info, thanks! 

9 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I wonder if there are astigmatism correction lenses for microscopes. 

I wear glasses myself, but not while looking into the stereo microscope. I know very little about optics but the lenses on my microscope can be rotated which affects the focus for me. I have no idea if that is to compensate for astigmatism but I thought I'd mention it.

[mikepilk]

3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

OT, but why start a new thread!?

Thinking a bit about it I believe it would be better to first focus on and assess the usefulness of a tool, and then its price.

There's nothing to assess - it's a bit of plastic with a hole in !