What would be the best basis for hairspring manipulation?

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Thinking a bit about it I believe it would be better to first focus on and assess the usefulness of a tool, and then its price. I was thinking that if we find the price of a tool too steep, beyond our reach.

Hiya watchie,I was meaning I wouldn't pay 72 for the Bergeon version of that tool as the cheap one seems almost identical. Maybe not in quality but in practicality as regards to dimensions etc. If you can't get along with using the cheap version it's likely  that the same will be of the Bergeon version. 

[mikepilk]

I suggest that you get an old hairspring, then try out adjusting it on various different surfaces - rubber, plastic, glass, card etc and find what works for you.
I find glass too hard, and prefer something with a little 'give', like card or vinyl. 

Just because Bergeon make a tool, doesn't mean it's the right, or best, way to do it.

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 10/9/2022 at 5:50 PM, VWatchie said:

I have been procrastinating HS-manipulation for the longest having tremendous (too much?) respect for the topic. Anyway, I'm thinking that now that I can replace balance staffs, adjust and replace pallet stones and other fiddly things I really should be mature enough to take on HS-manipulation. And, these days there are quite a few very good YT videos demonstrating hairspring manipulation.

To this end, I have now acquired two Bergeon 7025-6 tweezers.

I got them from https://webshop.tica.dk/en/. I first asked Cousins if they could provide them but within a minute I got the very short and decisive answer "no" without any further explanation. These tweezers were recommended by Kalle Slaap at the YT Chronoglide channel, and I sort of trust the guy (despite him telling us not to use an ultrasonic for watch parts ). Here's the video: Balance spring adjustment in 4 simple steps - a short introduction

So, now to the question of what basis to use to support the HS.

I am considering the Bergeon 30105 but after reading on the forum I'm not so sure. Is the 3.5 mm centre hole of the tool for the collet or is it for the stud? In both cases, the diameter of the hole seems very large. Perhaps I've misunderstood the use of the tool altogether? The tool is shown and recommended in the video I linked to but not really demonstrated. At one point in the video, Kalle places the centre hole of the tool right on top of a drawing of a stud, but he doesn't say that the stud goes into the hole so perhaps it was just a coincidence. It seems he's taking for granted that everyone will understand how to use the Bergeon 30105 hairspring holder.

So, what would be the best basis to use to support the HS when it is manipulated? What do you use?

Hi watchie. I have an old pair of those tweezers that have much wider  tips. Have you noticed how this helps with vertical bend hs manipulation. I also have a good pair of dumont no. 7 bent that I could square off the tips to match but I do find these nice to use for dis and re assembly,they have a good resting hand position.  I also trust Kalle ,very experienced and explains things well. He teaches students and is putting together a watch of his own making.

[VWatchie]

On 10/12/2022 at 5:06 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hi watchie. I have an old pair of those tweezers that have much wider  tips. Have you noticed how this helps with vertical bend hs manipulation.

Well no, I'm only just getting started so I simply thought I couldn't go too wrong with these two tweezers. In watch repairing, as in so many other disciplines, the person behind the tool matters the most. I remember when I was 14 years old and nagged my parents about getting a new violin bow. My teacher didn't think I was ready for it and rolled up a newspaper, placed some violin resin on it and played with it like a god. That was an unforgettable wake-up moment and lesson for life.

On 10/11/2022 at 3:59 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hiya watchie,I was meaning I wouldn't pay 72 for the Bergeon version of that tool as the cheap one seems almost identical. Maybe not in quality but in practicality as regards to dimensions etc. If you can't get along with using the cheap version it's likely  that the same will be of the Bergeon version. 

Yes, that seems very reasonable! 

Anyway, I was not talking about the Bergeon hairspring holder in particular but about tools in general. That's why I started my post with the "OT warning" and wrote, "it would be better to first focus on and assess the usefulness of a tool, and then its price." So, "tool"  is in indefinite form.

For example, I'm pretty sure the original non-lever Horia jewelling tool including the 24 pushers and anvils is an amazing piece of precision. Once that has been established, whether it's worth £2000 or so is a completely subjective matter and is for that reason IMO not all that interesting to discuss. The price doesn't affect the precision and efficiency of adjusting and replacing jewels. Don't get me wrong, the price is extremely interesting and relevant but only on an individual level (if you are a pro or enthusiast, your financial situation, your conditions for being able to make the tool yourself, the time you have available, etc.), and that's why it's great we these days more often have Chinese options.

So in general, I would consider it a mistake to first look at the price, and then try to assess the usefulness of a tool without any hands-on experience or trustworthy reviews.

On 10/11/2022 at 2:07 PM, mikepilk said:

There's nothing to assess - it's a bit of plastic with a hole in ! 

Let's see!

On 10/10/2022 at 10:53 AM, VWatchie said:

BTW, the transparent top on the Bergeon 30105 is not made of acrylic but glass.

Let me double-check that with Cousins again... Yes, the page still says "Glass top". Anyway, Cousins have made mistakes in the past so if you have other information please share.

On 10/11/2022 at 10:47 AM, HectorLooi said:

Having the smooth glass surface give a nicer feel when manipulating the spring. Also, with a glass surface, there isn't any shadow to further confuse you.

Yes well, according to @HectorLooi, the glass seems to have some relevance. Perhaps you found the price so offensive that you didn't bother to research it? I can respect that. After all, whether the price is right or not is a completely subjective matter.

Several people seem thrilled about it so I'll place it on my next Cousins order and if I don't like it I'd be happy to send it to you for free.

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by VWatchie

[nickelsilver]

I have one of the glass things with hole somewhere in a drawer. I got it as part of my tool kit in school, and don't think I've used it since my first days of hairspring instruction. As far as I know it's to place the balance with spring on.

 

I also have a number of curved and angled super fine tweezers, which also sit in a drawer. 99.99% of the hairspring work I do is with #4 or #5 tweezers (never really understood the difference, I think #4 might be a little shorter?- but even from one pair of #5 to the other there are differences). All possible work is done with the balance in the watch; if not possible, then with spring on the balance on a bench block, and if that's not possible, then spring on a bench block with the collet sitting in a hole.

 

Working under the microscope it's definitely good to have the spring on a block at least 10mm high or so, so that you can lift it by the stud, slide the block away, then tilt the spring to see how the flatness is without having to mess with the focus.

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Well no, I'm only just getting started so I simply thought I couldn't go too wrong with these two tweezers. In watch repairing, as in so many other disciplines, the person behind the tool matters the most.

I think they are perfect for the job. As I say I managed to aquire an old pair,the tips seem wider than the new ones. But the owner may have adjusted them to suit his purpose. These type have a better vertical bending grip on the hs and also the angle allows your hands to rest on the bench. I use mine with a pair of bent no. 7 (not quite as useful without the tip thickness ). I agree completely watchie, a poor workman blames his tools regardless of quality. A well made tool In the hands of a skillful  master produces incredible work. Here is an example for you, I've  just met a big Russian street craftsman in Rome  Piercing the design on different coin currencies of all ages He was using just a jewellers peg and a piercing saw and his gogs ( glasses ). I was so impressed I had to buy one, here it is. Shame both our phones were flat or I would have taken pictures of all his work. They were beautiful.

5 hours ago, VWatchie said:

"OT warning"

At the risk of looking stupid ( it's never bothered me, it happens daily haha ) I don't know what the "OT warning " is Watchie 

5 hours ago, VWatchie said:

in general, I would consider it a mistake to first look at the price, and then try to assess the usefulness of a tool without any hands-on experience or trustworthy reviews.

On 10/11/2022 at 2:07 PM, mikepilk said:

I just aim to buy the best that i can afford based on if I really need it,how much I will use it and how much better of a job it can do compared to a cheaper tool after asking questions and looking at reviews. As an example I was originally looking at second hand Horia and Seitz jewelling tools. After speaking to you and Gert regarding your opinions of the Chinese version I was happy to go along with that.

[VWatchie]

26 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I just aim to buy the best that i can afford based on if I really need it,how much I will use it and how much better of a job it can do compared to a cheaper tool after asking questions and looking at reviews.

That's exactly my approach, or at least that's what I aim for. Hand on heart, I have bought expensive tools that I've only used once (so far). My rationale is that if you buy Swiss quality tools you're likely to get most or all of your money back, and sometimes even more for discontinued but sought-after tools like the Bergeon Platax tool, once you sell them.  To me, good-quality tools are a bit like watches. I enjoy them, collect them, and use them. However, the original Horia jewelling tool, that you mention, was just too painful for me price-wise. Nevertheless, I'm sure the original Horia is a fantastic tool for those who can afford it and are willing to pay for it. Fortunately, the Chinese clone is quite excellent.

39 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I agree completely watchie, a poor workman blames his tools regardless of quality. A well made tool In the hands of a skillful  master produces incredible work. Here is an example for you

Impressive, and that's so very true. A skilful master can even produce miracles without the best of tools. As the saying goes, where there's a will there's a way.

[ManSkirtBrew]

4 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Fortunately, the Chinese clone is quite excellent.

Side note here--I have the Chinese clone, and agree that overall it's very good, but on mine the anvil is misaligned from the pusher slightly. 99% of the time it's a non-issue, since I can use a slightly larger anvil, but sometimes I can't. Any idea if there's a way to align them that I haven't figured out?

[VWatchie]

5 minutes ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

Side note here--I have the Chinese clone, and agree that overall it's very good, but on mine the anvil is misaligned from the pusher slightly. 99% of the time it's a non-issue, since I can use a slightly larger anvil, but sometimes I can't. Any idea if there's a way to align them that I haven't figured out?

Nope, none that I can come to think of. I also have some minor issues with my clone, but hey, when you can save 90 per cent compared to the original, I can live with that.

3 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I have one of the glass things with hole somewhere in a drawer. I got it as part of my tool kit in school, and don't think I've used it since my first days of hairspring instruction.

I guess if watchmaking schools use it, it can't be too bad for the beginning HS manipulator, like me. I guess with experience, skills acquired and finding personal methods more and more tools become obsolete. Good thing there's a market for used quality tools.

[nickelsilver]

2 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

Side note here--I have the Chinese clone, and agree that overall it's very good, but on mine the anvil is misaligned from the pusher slightly. 99% of the time it's a non-issue, since I can use a slightly larger anvil, but sometimes I can't. Any idea if there's a way to align them that I haven't figured out?

It would be a tricky job even if you had a machine shop at hand.

 

If I had to do it, I would make a boring bar that is a very close fit in the bore for the micrometer head and use that as a guide, with the cutting end ground to open the hole by let's say 1mm (open the hole up to 5mm); get the tool situated in the mill- this would ideally be done by indicating the bore to get centered, but that assumes the bottom of the tool is truly perpendicular to the bore axis. More practically the boring bar can be in the tool, then chucked in the machine spindle, then the tool carefully clamped in the machine vice (trickier than it sounds). Once all set, you bore out the bottom hole. Then make a sleeve that just fits the bore and has the 4mm hole; this will really need to be done in a lathe, boring (drilling undersize, then boring with a single point tool) the 4mm hole and turning the OD in one chucking. The sleeve can be held with Loctite 638 and will be effectively permanent, and the stumps will still be supported by the tool base, the sleeve is just positioning.

 

I suppose once the close fitting boring bar is in hand, one could try running it with a hand drill motor, with the tool in a bench vice, but I wouldn't count on it working great- but it could.

Edited October 14, 2022 by nickelsilver

[ManSkirtBrew]

Thanks, @VWatchieand @nickelsilver. I was hoping I'd missed an adjustment like there is on the plate for a staking tool, but looks like no. Ah, well.

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

It would be a tricky job even if you had a machine shop at hand.

Don't try this at home kids!  

If @ManSkirtBrew were to contract you to do the job, what would it cost? Maybe it would be cheaper to buy Horia's original jewelling tool (£470) provided there's nothing wrong with the clone pushers and anvils 

[nickelsilver]

27 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Don't try this at home kids!  

If @ManSkirtBrew were to contract you to do the job, what would it cost? Maybe it would be cheaper to buy Horia's original jewelling tool (£470) provided there's nothing wrong with the clone pushers and anvils 

Ha, I wouldn't do it unless it was my own tool*- too many possible pitfalls. I would imagine a machine shop capable of the work would have to charge at least a couple of hundred; between making the boring bar, and futzing around getting it positioned and held and just the PIA factor for such a job, but I suspect it would be hard to find a shop willing to do it.

 

*but all my Horias are- Horia; though I did buy them all secondhand and never paid more than 100 bucks for one (minus pushers/stumps).

Edited October 14, 2022 by nickelsilver

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

*but all my Horias are- Horia; though I did buy them all secondhand and never paid more than 100 bucks for one (minus pushers/stumps).

Guess you got them before the enthusiast boom! Even Swiss vintage watches with now forgotten and unknown names go for five times as much as they did just a few years ago. My brother has a bunch of fine Swiss vintage watches from the 60s, 70s, and 80s that he only paid between $20 and $100 some five to ten years ago.

Edited October 14, 2022 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

50 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Guess you got them before the enthusiast boom! Even Swiss vintage watches with now forgotten and unknown names go for five times as much as they did just a few years ago. My brother has a bunch of fine Swiss vintage watches from the 60s, 70s, and 80s that he only paid between $20 and $100 some five to ten years ago.

I've noticed that in the short time of one year that I've been collecting.  Nothing like the prices in Rome though, I've come across half a dozen vintage watch and antique shops. Veeeery  expensive to back home. Even a flee market, A very small laco travelling push together case clock, the guy wanted  130 euro. He never batted an eyelid when I put it back down.