Need Help with Parts

[Doawah]

I'm new to the whole watch repair and restoration scene so please excuse what might be a simple question.  I just finished my first strip down, clean and rebuild of an old 1927 Elgin Pocket Watch Grade 291.  It's a 7 jewel 16s according to the Pocket Watch Database.  During my service of the watch I discovered that the Balance Staff has a worm out and is in need of replacement.  According to the parts list the part number is #861 and the Balance Complete Part number is 4072 or 4082.  I currently don't own a staking set right now so i'm in no rush but I looked on Casker's website for the part and I found a ton of Balance Staff's with this part number 16s 861 part number but they all had different Skew numbers and all looked very different.  How do I tell which is the right part?  I also found a few different Balance Complete set's with this part number but none of them said what one was the right part for me.  

So I just need a little hand holding here so to speak.  What am I not understanding?  How do I find the right part.  Here's the link to the part sheet that I'm seeing on the Pocket Watch Database site. https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/guide/company/elgin/grade/291/parts .  And here is just one of the many pages that list out the many #861 16s Balance Staffs.  https://www.jewelerssupplies.com/horological/elgin_pocket_watch_parts-ss7.html.  What is the right part?  So confused right now.  Please help out this ol boy.

Thank you all so much in advance.

Graham.

[LittleWatchShop]

I am normally the one asking these questions.  You should read this thread.

Looking at my Illustrated Manual of American Watch Movements, I find this page.  It comports with your numbers.  However!, I look at other Elgin pages and see the same number applied to a staff shaped differently.  Similar to what you see on Casker website.

Do you have the old staff?  Can you match up the shape with one on Casker?  I realize that is chancy.

I am tagging @JohnR725whom I believe to be the resident expert on this kind of stuff.

Also look here just to extend the mystery

[grsnovi]

1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Do you have the old staff?  Can you match up the shape with one on Casker?

Even with the old staff the ones shown on Cas-Ker all "appear" identical in shape (except for one) with the exception of what I'm assuming to be a critical dimension as designated by the last digits in the p/n. Again, I'm assuming these are showing five different dimensions running from 10.5 thousandths to 20 thousandths. The last one at .0348 may not follow the earlier pattern at all or it may have been for an oddball watch.

Again, maybe @JohnR725 can be of some help - he always seems to be able to pull a rabbit out of a hat.

[clockboy]

2 hours ago, Doawah said:

I'm new to the whole watch repair and restoration scene so please excuse what might be a simple question.  I just finished my first strip down, clean and rebuild of an old 1927 Elgin Pocket Watch Grade 291.  It's a 7 jewel 16s according to the Pocket Watch Database.  During my service of the watch I discovered that the Balance Staff has a worm out and is in need of replacement.  According to the parts list the part number is #861 and the Balance Complete Part number is 4072 or 4082.  I currently don't own a staking set right now so i'm in no rush but I looked on Casker's website for the part and I found a ton of Balance Staff's with this part number 16s 861 part number but they all had different Skew numbers and all looked very different.  How do I tell which is the right part?  I also found a few different Balance Complete set's with this part number but none of them said what one was the right part for me.  

So I just need a little hand holding here so to speak.  What am I not understanding?  How do I find the right part.  Here's the link to the part sheet that I'm seeing on the Pocket Watch Database site. https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/guide/company/elgin/grade/291/parts .  And here is just one of the many pages that list out the many #861 16s Balance Staffs.  https://www.jewelerssupplies.com/horological/elgin_pocket_watch_parts-ss7.html.  What is the right part?  So confused right now.  Please help out this ol boy.

Thank you all so much in advance.

Graham.

You will need a staking set/tool to fit a new balance staff. You will also have to have a way of removing the old staff without causing damage to the balance. The traditional way was to cut away part of the staff using watchmakers lathe. There are other tools such as a Platax tool which are no longer manufactured so a used one would need to be found.  The bottom line is parts are always an issue but you need the basic tools as well.

Edited July 5, 2022 by clockboy

[watchweasol]

As per clockboys post.    just adding try daveswatchparts.com in America he knows his waltham and elgin watches and may be able to help,

[Doawah]

Phew.  I'm somewhat relieved it isn't a simple answer.  I thought I was just not getting it and I consider myself a fairly smart bloke so to speak.  I did watch a video last night that Mark had posted on this subject and he used a Platex tool to set it in place.  Mostly I was more curious than anything as I don't have the tools right now to fix it even if I did have the right part but buying replacement parts is something i'm going to need to know how to do.  I was hoping to just find a Balance Complete so I can replace the whole lot and be done with it.  I guess my best option would be to find a jobber movement but thats a crap shoot as I have no way of knowing how good a condition the staff will be on that one.  Maybe I can write to Marshall on Wristwatch Revival and see if he wants to take it on as another video for his channel as I know he has the tools to do it as he's done one before.  Marshall.  Are you out there?  Wanna take it on?   I would love to try and fix this myself though at some point though.  You guys are all great.  Thank you so much for your help.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Doawah said:

Elgin Pocket Watch Grade 291.

the website below is interesting in that if you look up your grade is a parts list but it also has notes on the bottom of the page often missing from other sources. Typically to get the notes you have to have an actual catalog. So you look at the fine print will notice is a lot of variations typical with American pocket watches.

If you're dealing with a modern relatively modern Swiss watch balance staff balance completes whatever you can mix and match no problems. But on anything of vintage they have serial numbers sizing issues finding an exact replacement this is a drop-in will be challenging if not impossible.

2 hours ago, Doawah said:

According to the parts list the part number is #861 and the Balance Complete Part number is 4072 or 4082.

if you look at the link below the balance complete is sort of answered in that you need to know your serial number that will tell you which balance complete but? notice that even the roller jewel is different there's variations of the roller jewel size conceivably that means there's variations in the pallet fork size. There's other escapement variations sizes so the best way to do this would be to replace the balance staff and you only have one number for that so that should be easy except this is Elgin not that the other watch companies don't have variations but Elgin seems to have a lot of variations because they did manufacturer over a very long time and they were continuously upgrading.

notice I attached a page of Elgin balance staffs towards the bottom is the 861 it comes into styles and a whole variety of pivots sizes. Although today are lucky to get any pivots size at all  are kinda stuck with that. This is where having a lathe comes really important not just for  replacing the balance staff but you might have to modify the balance staff like change the pivots size which too big for your watch.

then there's a very important tool to remember when working on vintage or possibly anything especially with balance staffs definitely with vintage. Always measure the old part dimensions. Really good when you're trying to order something's you know if it would bring the right parts. When you get the part measure it verify it agrees with the old dimensions. Never assume that their identical otherwise usually damage occurs. That damage can be very very expensive very very fast.

then from the 1915 Elgin parts catalog the section on balance staffs you will note the size variations for your staff at they don't even go into all the pivots sizes. Of course at that time you could just order one from the factory get exactly what you wanted providing you with measured in the first place so you can tell them what you wanted otherwise someone the catalog it very clearly says if you order a dozen staffs they will come in assorted sizes.

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

 

[LittleWatchShop]

30 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

the website below is interesting in that if you look up your grade is a parts list but it also has notes on the bottom of the page often missing from other sources. Typically to get the notes you have to have an actual catalog. So you look at the fine print will notice is a lot of variations typical with American pocket watches.

If you're dealing with a modern relatively modern Swiss watch balance staff balance completes whatever you can mix and match no problems. But on anything of vintage they have serial numbers sizing issues finding an exact replacement this is a drop-in will be challenging if not impossible.

if you look at the link below the balance complete is sort of answered in that you need to know your serial number that will tell you which balance complete but? notice that even the roller jewel is different there's variations of the roller jewel size conceivably that means there's variations in the pallet fork size. There's other escapement variations sizes so the best way to do this would be to replace the balance staff and you only have one number for that so that should be easy except this is Elgin not that the other watch companies don't have variations but Elgin seems to have a lot of variations because they did manufacturer over a very long time and they were continuously upgrading.

notice I attached a page of Elgin balance staffs towards the bottom is the 861 it comes into styles and a whole variety of pivots sizes. Although today are lucky to get any pivots size at all  are kinda stuck with that. This is where having a lathe comes really important not just for  replacing the balance staff but you might have to modify the balance staff like change the pivots size which too big for your watch.

then there's a very important tool to remember when working on vintage or possibly anything especially with balance staffs definitely with vintage. Always measure the old part dimensions. Really good when you're trying to order something's you know if it would bring the right parts. When you get the part measure it verify it agrees with the old dimensions. Never assume that their identical otherwise usually damage occurs. That damage can be very very expensive very very fast.

then from the 1915 Elgin parts catalog the section on balance staffs you will note the size variations for your staff at they don't even go into all the pivots sizes. Of course at that time you could just order one from the factory get exactly what you wanted providing you with measured in the first place so you can tell them what you wanted otherwise someone the catalog it very clearly says if you order a dozen staffs they will come in assorted sizes.

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

 

Ahaaaa!!  You gave me the Rosetta stone and did not realize it.  The data you posted in our earlier thread did not have the column labels, but I see them here with the document page you posted.

47 minutes ago, Doawah said:

Phew.  I'm somewhat relieved it isn't a simple answer.  I thought I was just not getting it and I consider myself a fairly smart bloke so to speak.  I did watch a video last night that Mark had posted on this subject and he used a Platex tool to set it in place.  Mostly I was more curious than anything as I don't have the tools right now to fix it even if I did have the right part but buying replacement parts is something i'm going to need to know how to do.  I was hoping to just find a Balance Complete so I can replace the whole lot and be done with it.  I guess my best option would be to find a jobber movement but thats a crap shoot as I have no way of knowing how good a condition the staff will be on that one.  Maybe I can write to Marshall on Wristwatch Revival and see if he wants to take it on as another video for his channel as I know he has the tools to do it as he's done one before.  Marshall.  Are you out there?  Wanna take it on?   I would love to try and fix this myself though at some point though.  You guys are all great.  Thank you so much for your help.

I feel your pain...but I have developed a modicum of skill...enough to do a staff replacement with a lathe and staking set.  I am an amateur will remain so for the foreseeable future.

[Doawah]

Wow.  Thank you so much for this explaination.  Although I still feel a little confused i'm a lot clearer on some things and it definately explains all the different parts under the same number.  Does anyone know of a good video on youtube that shows the replacement of a Balance Staff using a Lathe so I can learn how to do the process?

Thank you all for reponding to my question.  What a wonderful community this is.  

[LittleWatchShop]

4 minutes ago, Doawah said:

good video

Here is one by our very own @jdrichard

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Doawah said:

explains all the different parts under the same number.

just a little clarification here. I've seen that people new to watch repair don't realize there's something else is going on. So let's look at what the Swiss do at least what they used to do currently they do have unique numbers for every single part. But previously they had a numbering system where in setting using a name they use a number.

So I've seen this happen with people new to watch repair is you look at a tech sheets you'll see a part number for a balance staff for instance annual The order one and be very confused by it's not the right part at all. So I snipped out a couple images explain a little about that show you the pictures. So by using a number rather than a word you can get by with packets with just a number on it because the packets of watch parts tend to be really tiny it also means a number is universal where every language would use the same number for the same part but obviously their language it's a different word you can't print all the words on pack in a parts.

Then you end up with the American companies as in C with Elgin they had lots of variations for the same part because the watch you fall over time and that's an entirely different numbering system or scheme than what the Swiss are doing.

oh and then the other thing shown below is even with the Swiss one part might be our wheel but they are wheel could have different heights to it. This is where people in the material house get really frustrated because people don't often give enough information and then you end up with the wrong parts than your unhappy with the material house is unhappy with you. This is also why typically a lot of watch material houses won't do business with hobbyists are amateurs because they have no idea at all how to order parts

although that's not unique to hobbyists one of the local material houses got very frustrated with everybody including professionals it would tend to tell them how stupid they were because they didn't understand how to run their material house. They had acquired a material house and started to material business which lasted a few years before it went out of business mainly because he didn't understand how complicated the material house business is.

Oh and then the other thing about the numbering scheme that is actually several different schemes. Says not like universal a part number may be identical to all systems. Which also means when other material houses absorb other material houses they usually will not integrated into their system because it's too confusing so unfortunately Swiss American part numbering schemes for watch parts are confusing and as you're finding out lead to why doesn't my part fits when I have the right part number.

 

[LittleWatchShop]

18 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I've seen that people new to watch repair don't realize there's something else is going on

Indeed.  I figured this out over time just by observation.  I have the Bestfit book (where you got this) and I should have read it from cover to cover early on (like a year and a half ago) and I would be much smarter now...well maybe a little smarter.

BTW, I was on the site elginwatches.org and downloaded about 130ish pages of the 1915 elgin book, converted them to pdf, combined, and OCR'd.  It is 49MB in size.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Here is one by our very own @jdrichard

oh and no regarding the video. There are variety of methods of doing balance staffs and a lot of opinions in watch repair.

21 hours ago, clockboy said:

You will need a staking set/tool to fit a new balance staff. You will also have to have a way of removing the old staff without causing damage to the balance. The traditional way was to cut away part of the staff using watchmakers lathe. There are other tools such as a Platax tool which are no longer manufactured so a used one would need to be found.

no matter what you need a really decent staking set.

then watch repair there are opinions on how to do things. Conceivably everyone was trained differently exposed to different tools and things people at different knowledge of things. People have different perceptions of things.

Now you will note in the quoted section above removing the balance staff. The reference to using the lathe the cutaway part of the staff. This would be either cutting away the ribbons are weakening the rivet C can drive the staff out. I was actually taught that in school. Others will cut the hub off on the backside. Doesn't really matter which method you use as long as you don't destroy the balance wheel in the process.

What about knocking the staff out the video indicates that's very bad but is it?. notice the reference to the Platax tool this is a very nice tool but astronomically expensive if you ever confined one and it does exactly that it knocks the staff out. I also have an image of a tool that does basically similar stuff. Well at least as far as knocking the staff out the other tool will allow you to remove the roller etc. ill have to have an accessory for your staking sep to do that or another tool. Yes this is also watch repair you will never have enough tools

as far as knocking out staffs safely goes there variety of factors in play. Several of the American companies made staffs specifically designed to be knocked out.  Elginium and was very proud of their later version the balance wheel made out of a very hard material that you could knock the staff out because the arms would withstand that. Rolex even has a staff that can't be knocked out a test he pressed out with a special school as there's no other way to do it. If you are knocking a staff out the rule is you just gently tap the staff doesn't quite come out then you most definitely have to cut something if somebody got really carried away with the riveting it's not going to knock out even if was supposed to knock out.

So basically end up with lots of variations lots of opinions lots of methods and some are very bad or can be bad and some can work very well.

 

 

[LittleWatchShop]

3 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Yes this is also watch repair you will never have enough tools

Truer words have never been written and my bank account will confirm.

[JohnR725]

7 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I have the Bestfit book (where you got this) and I should have read it from cover to cover early on (like a year and a half ago) and I would be much smarter now...well maybe a little smarter.

because the bestfit books are so huge they become basically impossible to sit down and read. Well you can sit down and look at them but in real life you should look at them from time to time just because it's too hard to absorb all the knowledge in one sitting. So anyone that has the books and looks at them will discover something new every single time they look at them no matter how many times I've looked at them in the past as the just filled with so much interesting information.

9 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

BTW, I was on the site elginwatches.org and downloaded about 130ish pages of the 1915 elgin book, converted them to pdf, combined, and OCR'd.  It is 49MB in size.

one of things always bothers me with PDF distribution is as to whether it has a copyright attached to it somehow. for instance the bestfit book printed in the 60s I purchased my PDF from the material house that I'm reasonably sure may have a copyright to it. Somewhere there was discussion that somebody was distributing it for free and they were asked not to but they still are? So never quite sure about PDFs distributing them unless I know where I got them from and I didn't have to pay for them because then it makes me nervous.

for instance you can buy a lot of information on eBay on CDs and discs or they'll let you download them. But a lot of times the stuff on this they found them someplace for free. For instance the Elgin 1915 parts catalog where did my copy come from? Not entirely sure having accumulated so much data for such a long amount of time but knowing what the look for I found the link.

So anyone in need of a 1915 Elgin parts catalog there is where you can download the file for free.

https://elrelojero.mx/manuales/Elgin/1915ElginMaster.pdf

[LittleWatchShop]

10 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

copyright

Well, if you do not see the © then I think you are safe.

Bestfit is not copyrighted either.  I paid ten bucks or something for it and then removed the password protection, so I have no ethical problem with passing it on frankly.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Bestfit is not copyrighted either.  I paid ten bucks or something for it and then removed the password protection, so I have no ethical problem with passing it on frankly

interestingly more we did the exact same thing. I is set my password-protected off to a friend who remove the password I assume he kept a copy and I got my password removed copy back which is a lot nicer than having to remember stupid password.

 

[Doawah]

At this age a lot of this material will be public domain at this point.  This thread has been fascinating to me.  I've learned so much in such a short period of time.  One thing is for certain.  Watch making and parts are not like cars.  I've thrown together odd combinations of parts in cars so may times I dare to think.  Thank you all again for your kind words of wisdom.

[grsnovi]

23 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Bestfit is not copyrighted either.

Seems I looked at this previously (after purchasing the hardcopy). There is no © symbol anywhere that I can find within the catalogue. The name Bestfit® is shown as being registered. 

[LittleWatchShop]

5 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

Seems I looked at this previously (after purchasing the hardcopy). There is no © symbol anywhere that I can find within the catalogue. The name Bestfit® is shown as being registered. 

The registered trademark would not preclude copying and distributing IMHO. 

[JohnR725]

8 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

Seems I looked at this previously (after purchasing the hardcopy). There is no © symbol anywhere that I can find within the catalogue. The name Bestfit® is shown as being registered.

I was looking at the PDF version and on the second page I snipped out something so you can see they clearly registered their name. Then they have dates I didn't realize it had been revised so many times I would be curious of what the revisions are if anything.

Then maybe it can't be copyrighted? I'm not sure if any of the numbers of bestfit are unique in a way the basic numbers are the Swiss numbering system. Bestfit would have numbers for the parts but maybe you can't copyright numbers for parts. Because it's a catalog of largely Swiss terminology pictures etc. etc. maybe it can't be copyrighted?

[watchweasol]

to remember reading somewhere I think it was the watch guy that Wm McCaw had bought the copyright and they distribute the CD version, although I did see a link to the best fit books on the watch guys site and they were still working.

[LittleWatchShop]

The plot thickens.

So, as you know, my world is patent litigation though I am not an atty, just an expert witness, so I have lots of atty friends steeped in patents, trademarks, copyrights, etc.

So I just got off the phone with one.  The circle c is not required for something to be copyrighted.  It could be registered but not have the ©.  So my earlier comments were incomplete at best.  Who knows if Bestfit registered their copyright.  Frankly, I doubt it and here is why.  Their "Bestfit" name is not registered at the trademark office.  I just looked.  Even though they printed ® there is not indication that it was ever really registered.

Now the interesting thing...MATSYS has a website with the Bestfit system.  They claim their name is registered.  I looked it up.  GROBET FILE COMPANY OF AMERICA was the original registrant and then the ownership transferred to WILLIAM S. MCCAW COMPANY CORPORATION.  But even so, it died last year: Cancellation Date  November 5, 2021.  Even MATSYS is not a registered trademark.

So, what does it all mean???  Probably nothing.

1 minute ago, watchweasol said:

McCaw

Yes seem my contemporaneous post.

[watchweasol]

So it’s run out Interesting.

[LittleWatchShop]

2 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

So it’s run out Interesting.

@watchweasol, quit hovering over this boring topic and help me with this purty please?

 From watchguy website: