Venus 188 beating erratically after restoration

[gkmaia]

I have restored this venus 188 but it is beating all over the place. 

It had the roller and staff replaced. Roller is correctly aligned with the stud. All cleaned and serviced. Did not find any other issue on the process. I bypassed the chronometer wheels to see if they were dragging. Still the same.

What is the process an experienced watchmaker would follow in order to isolate what may be causing the issue? 

 

[nickelsilver]

7 minutes ago, gkmaia said:

I have restored this venus 188 but it is beating all over the place. 

It had the roller and staff replaced. Roller is correctly aligned with the stud. All cleaned and serviced. Did not find any other issue on the process. I bypassed the chronometer wheels to see if they were dragging. Still the same.

What is the process an experienced watchmaker would follow in order to isolate what may be causing the issue? 

 

 

 

Check for train freedom with fork out

Check the pallet fork snaps back and forth cleanly with balance out

Check that balance oscillates freely with fork out

Check that balance endshake is correct (as well as fork and other endshakes)

Check that hairspring is level and centered

If you do that last check you will see that your hairspring is sitting on top of the center wheel. Once you correct that, note that the lift angle for this piece is 42 degrees, not 52.

Edited April 11, 2022 by nickelsilver

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

If you do that last check you will see that your hairspring is sitting on top of the center wheel. Once you correct that,

At least we had a decent enough picture to see the image so I snipped out the offending hairspring.

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

Check that hairspring is level and centered

One of the things you always want to do with all of your watches is to make sure they hairspring is centered and level. It's always quite amazing all the clever things in hairsprings can do to touch things that they're not supposed to.

[gkmaia]

 That spring there does not help.. I guess. Still learning... 

Ok, so spring is in the right place now. 48 degrees set. Seems better. Letting it run for a few hours. 

Check for train freedom with fork out - OK

Check the pallet fork snaps back and forth cleanly with balance out - OK

Check that balance oscillates freely with fork out - OK

Check that hairspring is level and centered - OK

Check that balance endshake is correct - OK

[grsnovi]

@nickelsilver said 42° not 48° - you may want to adjust your Timegrapher @gkmaia

[jdm]

1 hour ago, grsnovi said:

@nickelsilver said 42° not 48° - you may want to adjust your Timegrapher @gkmaia

As per OP above, he did that already.

However lift angle only slightly affects amplityde reading, but when the watch runs erratically, the entire readout is useless. No point in getting fixated about. 

[grsnovi]

@jdmI don't have a Timegrapher so I'm not even vaguely aware of how sensitive they are to the difference between 42 and 48.but 48 is closer to 52 than to 42 and it was suggested that 52 was incorrect. So, as far as I know @gkmaia did not do as instructed.

[Klassiker]

The amplitude is still much too low, but the relatively clean traces are encouraging. Set your lift angle to 42 degrees, and measure again with and without the chronograph wheels. Test and record in all six positions.

[jdm]

14 hours ago, grsnovi said:

@jdmI don't have a Timegrapher so I'm not even vaguely aware of how sensitive they are to the difference between 42 and 48.

One doesn't need to own a timegrapher to know on the subject. As discussed many times before, the reduction in amplitude reading is about 1.5 deg for each less grade set as lift angle. There is a formula for this which I will omit to report here.

So again, what I'm trying to convey here is that when a mov.t has a terribly low amplitude, as in 126 deg, having an inaccurate lift angle in the timegrapher, even 10 or 15 plus or minus, will not change the fact that amplictude is insufficient by one half at least. In these cases the repairer needs to focus on the watch, not on the instrument.

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 4/12/2022 at 3:25 AM, grsnovi said:

@jdmI don't have a Timegrapher so I'm not even vaguely aware of how sensitive they are to the difference between 42 and 48.but 48 is closer to 52 than to 42 and it was suggested that 52 was incorrect. So, as far as I know @gkmaia did not do as instructed.

You go Gary

Edited April 16, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Nucejoe]

Hairspring could still be rubbing.

Did you check the end shake on all arbours? 

How did you clean the fork? 

Are you sure you completely bypassed the chrono complication? 

Did you remove cap jewels , clean and peg the jewels?  if you are not sure and might still have dried oil rsidue in the jewels, what I do is to drop a bit of lighter fluid on cap jewels, the fluid will penetrate the setting and temporarilty frees the pivots. 

Good luck

[rodabod]

You mentioned aligning the roller with the stud. Can you just confirm that when the balance is at rest, the impulse jewel on the roller is centred between the two banking pins?

[ifibrin]

On 4/11/2022 at 4:55 PM, nickelsilver said:

Check that hairspring is level and centered

Th hairspring not being level and centered can lead to some very odd and perplexing results on the timegrapher that will frustrate you to no end. Also, if the hairspring stud is slightly twisted to an angle, or if the hairspring stud is not at the correct level, it can cause amplitude issues or beat error problems.

Such issues can sometimes be inadvertently introduced when tweaking the eta-chron system, since rotating the studs (hairspring stud and/or regulator stud) can introduce slight off-axis twists to the terminal end curve which causes the hairspring to cone.

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Hairspring could still be rubbing.

Did you check the end shake on all arbours? 

How did you clean the fork? 

Are you sure you completely bypassed the chrono complication? 

Did you remove cap jewels , clean and peg the jewels?  if you are not sure and might still have dried oil rsidue in the jewels, what I do is to drop a bit of lighter fluid on cap jewels, the fluid will penetrate the setting and temporarilty frees the pivots. 

Good luck

Thats a good tip nucejoe to find a quick uncleaned jewel setting.

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 hours ago, ifibrin said:

Th hairspring not being level and centered can lead to some very odd and perplexing results on the timegrapher that will frustrate you to no end. Also, if the hairspring stud is slightly twisted to an angle, or if the hairspring stud is not at the correct level, it can cause amplitude issues or beat error problems.

Such issues can sometimes be inadvertently introduced when tweaking the eta-chron system, since rotating the studs (hairspring stud and/or regulator stud) can introduce slight off-axis twists to the terminal end curve which causes the hairspring to cone.

Although I'm not part of this intial questioning. Thank ifibrin.  This happened to me loads in the beginning especially the coning. Correcting the hairspring was really good practice, brought my tweezer manipulation down to a much smaller scale. Not fun to start with but well worth  approaching. 

[ifibrin]

14 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Although I'm not part of this intial questioning. Thank ifibrin.  This happened to me loads in the beginning especially the coning. Correcting the hairspring was really good practice, brought my tweezer manipulation down to a much smaller scale. Not fun to start with but well worth  approaching. 

The really annoying thing is that this can happen without you even realizing! Especially in smaller movements where the center wheel is very close to the hairspring and it can get twisted imperceptibly during installation, causing the hairspring to be slightly off level.

[clockboy]

Noticed the amplitude is very low indeed. If it was me I would re trace back through the train starting with the balance and h/spring.If visually all looks good and not too much end and side shake clean and lubricate the cap jewels and check again. If no improvement the next to check is the pallet folk. A few year ago I had a similar issue and found one of the pallets stones was loose. If still no errors then check the train of wheels are running freely ie with a tiny wind on the mainspring the train should run freely and NOT stop abruptly. 
This is the fun of horology enjoy

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thats a good tip nucejoe to find a quick uncleaned jewel setting.

 Yes useful to know and sometimes the fluid gets on hairspring as one tries droping it on cap jewels, I usually puff air on the spring and balance ( intermitenetly) to force the balance oscilate and speed up the fluid's evaporation as well , but what fluid has penetrated inside the setting stays for a while. 

@gkmaia was the watch a non runner before? 

Regs Joe

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, ifibrin said:

The really annoying thing is that this can happen without you even realizing! Especially in smaller movements where the center wheel is very close to the hairspring and it can get twisted imperceptibly during installation, causing the hairspring to be slightly off level.

Thank you for the explanation.  Yes I have had that happen a few times and have to tweek the spring below the center wheel to save it from damage.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, clockboy said:

Noticed the amplitude is very low indeed. If it was me I would re trace back through the train starting with the balance and h/spring.If visually all looks good and not too much end and side shake clean and lubricate the cap jewels and check again. If no improvement the next to check is the pallet folk. A few year ago I had a similar issue and found one of the pallets stones was loose. If still no errors then check the train of wheels are running freely ie with a tiny wind on the mainspring the train should run freely and NOT stop abruptly. 
This is the fun of horology enjoy

I used to fully assemble the movement after cleaning then if I had an issue anywhere have to backtrack to find the fault. I've now learnt to check everything as best I can  as it goes back in. Starting with the balance, first with hairspring  alignments and a good check around the balance assembly for anything obvious followed by an initial beat error check and adjustment.  Then remove balance and begin with barrel and train checks as they go in, for free running and to observe escape wheel reversal to confirm this. Checking all endshake to each on the way. Then pallet fork locking and unlocking, a banking pin inspection that might indicate any previous repairers poking  around. And finally a last check on the balance in case  I moved anything on its first installment. Balance  back in and hopefully a voilà. Then I Spend 10 mins inspecting it's running. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I used to fully assemble the movement after cleaning then if I had an issue anywhere have to backtrack to find the fault. I've now learnt to check everything as best I can  as it goes back in. Starting with the balance, first with hairspring  alignments and a good check around the balance assembly for anything obvious followed by an initial beat error check and adjustment.  Then remove balance and begin with barrel and train checks as they go in, for free running and to observe escape wheel reversal to confirm this. Checking all endshake to each on the way. Then pallet fork locking and unlocking, a banking pin inspection that might indicate any previous repairers poking  around. And finally a last check on the balance in case  I moved anything on its first installment. Balance  back in and hopefully a voilà. Then I Spend 10 mins inspecting it's running. 

 

19 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I used to fully assemble the movement after cleaning then if I had an issue anywhere have to backtrack to find the fault. I've now learnt to check everything as best I can  as it goes back in. Starting with the balance, first with hairspring  alignments and a good check around the balance assembly for anything obvious followed by an initial beat error check and adjustment.  Then remove balance and begin with barrel and train checks as they go in, for free running and to observe escape wheel reversal to confirm this. Checking all endshake to each on the way. Then pallet fork locking and unlocking, a banking pin inspection that might indicate any previous repairers poking  around. And finally a last check on the balance in case  I moved anything on its first installment. Balance  back in and hopefully a voilà. Then I Spend 10 mins inspecting 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, clockboy said:

Noticed the amplitude is very low indeed. If it was me I would re trace back through the train starting with the balance and h/spring.If visually all looks good and not too much end and side shake clean and lubricate the cap jewels and check again. If no improvement the next to check is the pallet folk. A few year ago I had a similar issue and found one of the pallets stones was loose. If still no errors then check the train of wheels are running freely ie with a tiny wind on the mainspring the train should run freely and NOT stop abruptly. 
This is the fun of horology enjoy

Sorry Clockboy, I keep addressing the wrong posts, I'm still trying to navigate my first time in a forum

[ifibrin]

2 hours ago, clockboy said:

 If still no errors then check the train of wheels are running freely ie with a tiny wind on the mainspring the train should run freely and NOT stop abruptly. 

If it does stop abruptly where do you usually look? End shake, jewels, pivots, pinion, and wheel teeth? Is there anything else? I have one movement with acceptable amplitude but doesn’t show backspin and does stop somewhat abruptly.

[Nucejoe]

4 hours ago, ifibrin said:

If it does stop abruptly where do you usually look? End shake, jewels, pivots, pinion, and wheel teeth? Is there anything else? I have one movement with acceptable amplitude but doesn’t show backspin and does stop somewhat abruptly.

I ink mark the escape and third wheels , give it several a tiny wind to see if it stops at same point. 

[ifibrin]

23 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

I ink mark the escape and third wheels , give it several a tiny wind to see if it stops at same point. 

Does this mean that if one of the wheels stops at the same point there’s something wrong with it?

Edited April 17, 2022 by ifibrin