Bought a timegrapher and now I have more questions than answers!

[Boydie]

I’ve bought a weishi 1000 timegrapher and now my problems start:-)

1. I’ve got watches who’s rate cycles up and down between 30m/s and 200s/d, why would this be and how can I rectify that? The graph looks like waves of the sea.

2. I have a watch that has beat error adjuster as well as rate adjuster on the balance assembly. I can’t get it too or below 1m/s beat error and below +/-100s/d rate. Each time I get one close the other goes way out. I’ve read it’s best to get beat rate correct first, but as soon as I get that around 1m/s or less the rate goes made like -300 to -600 s/d. If I regulate rate to within 60s/d the beat rate can go as high as 8m/s. 
 

If you can help, that would be great.

Cheers,

Boyd

[nickelsilver]

What watch? Is it recently serviced? Is everything working correctly?

 

The timing machine is (sometimes the first, just to get a look) usually the last thing you look at after servicing a watch. The cause of your issues is somewhere in a laundry list of possible causes. I love that watch repair has become a popular hobby but diagnosing and repairing watches is also a profession that takes years of school and years more to become proficient. If your watch was made 50 years ago and the service history is unknown it really needs a full service. If it's a year old, warranty work. 5 years old, probably a service.

 

For anyone to give more than pure speculative responses we'll need to know the caliber, the amplitude (must know the lift angle to tell your machine), and a pic or two or three, of the balance and hairspring from top and as much as possible from the side to even guess.

 

If your rate is changing so much with beat error correction you likely have a regulator setup where the beat arm also moves the regulator arm. And/or the hairspring is not true. Or- (the laundry list begins.. )

[JohnR725]

14 hours ago, Boydie said:

watches

Watches that implies more than one you're only supposed to put one on the timing machine at a time. Timing machines get hopelessly confused if they're trying to time more than one watch at a time. Also what gets hopelessly confused or people answering questions when you're trying to get diagnostics from a whole bunch of watches as each watch is unique.

14 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

For anyone to give more than pure speculative responses we'll need to know the caliber, the amplitude (must know the lift angle to tell your machine), and a pic or two or three, of the balance and hairspring from top and as much as possible from the side to even guess.

What I thought that's what a crystal ball is for I stare at my crystal ball and I make diagnostics on the discussion group?

14 hours ago, Boydie said:

If you can help, that would be great.

We can but you have to slow down I suggest following the helped it's been given above one watch at a time. Proper description a picture of the watch more pictures as requested above and a picture of the timing machine. You need to have a timing procedure also. A timing procedure would be to wind the watch up let it run about 15 minutes. Put it on the machine although it can be on the machine but don't look at it for about 15 minutes. Give us a picture of dial up, dial down and at least one crown/pendant position. If it's a pocket watch crown up if it's a wristwatch crown down. Make sure it runs for about 30 seconds in each position and allow us 30 seconds stabilization time between rotating the microphone.

Oh and? I see it's already been posted up above but basically we need the history of recently acquired recently serviced its condition etc. Unfortunately a whole variety of things can cause a whole variety of problems and it's always helpful to know ahead of time what were dealing with. Even though the timing machine can look at a watch sealed in its case is not entirely helpful for diagnostic purposes if we don't know the condition.

14 hours ago, Boydie said:

1. I’ve got watches who’s rate cycles up and down between 30m/s and 200s/d, why would this be and how can I rectify that? The graph looks like waves of the sea.

If you're actually seeing a sine wave effect on the graphical display it can be caused by magnetism or a bent pivot.

I'm attaching a PDF that gives you a sampling of what you might see. As stated above understanding what you see in the timing machine takes a long time to learn & grasp. It's not a clear-cut exact science sometimes. It's more of a generalization of if it looks bad your watch is having a problem if it looks good your watch is probably okay. Then as I also commented timing and more than one position is also extremely important. It's amazing how many people only look at the watch in one position and then ponder why that watch doesn't keep time. Because after all it look perfect dial down on the timing machine it's only when they put it in a pendant/crown position do they realize it may be they have a problem or even just looking at the other side they might have a problem.

 

Timing-Machine-Charts.PDF

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Watches that implies more than one you're only supposed to put one on the timing machine at a time. Timing machines get hopelessly confused if they're trying to time more than one watch at a time. Also what gets hopelessly confused or people answering questions when you're trying to get diagnostics from a whole bunch of watches as each watch is unique.

What I thought that's what a crystal ball is for I stare at my crystal ball and I make diagnostics on the discussion group?

We can but you have to slow down I suggest following the helped it's been given above one watch at a time. Proper description a picture of the watch more pictures as requested above and a picture of the timing machine. You need to have a timing procedure also. A timing procedure would be to wind the watch up let it run about 15 minutes. Put it on the machine although it can be on the machine but don't look at it for about 15 minutes. Give us a picture of dial up, dial down and at least one crown/pendant position. If it's a pocket watch crown up if it's a wristwatch crown down. Make sure it runs for about 30 seconds in each position and allow us 30 seconds stabilization time between rotating the microphone.

Oh and? I see it's already been posted up above but basically we need the history of recently acquired recently serviced its condition etc. Unfortunately a whole variety of things can cause a whole variety of problems and it's always helpful to know ahead of time what were dealing with. Even though the timing machine can look at a watch sealed in its case is not entirely helpful for diagnostic purposes if we don't know the condition.

If you're actually seeing a sine wave effect on the graphical display it can be caused by magnetism or a bent pivot.

I'm attaching a PDF that gives you a sampling of what you might see. As stated above understanding what you see in the timing machine takes a long time to learn & grasp. It's not a clear-cut exact science sometimes. It's more of a generalization of if it looks bad your watch is having a problem if it looks good your watch is probably okay. Then as I also commented timing and more than one position is also extremely important. It's amazing how many people only look at the watch in one position and then ponder why that watch doesn't keep time. Because after all it look perfect dial down on the timing machine it's only when they put it in a pendant/crown position do they realize it may be they have a problem or even just looking at the other side they might have a problem.

 

Timing-Machine-Charts.PDF 5.32 MB · 1 download

 

20 hours ago, Boydie said:

I’ve bought a weishi 1000 timegrapher and now my problems start:-)

1. I’ve got watches who’s rate cycles up and down between 30m/s and 200s/d, why would this be and how can I rectify that? The graph looks like waves of the sea.

2. I have a watch that has beat error adjuster as well as rate adjuster on the balance assembly. I can’t get it too or below 1m/s beat error and below +/-100s/d rate. Each time I get one close the other goes way out. I’ve read it’s best to get beat rate correct first, but as soon as I get that around 1m/s or less the rate goes made like -300 to -600 s/d. If I regulate rate to within 60s/d the beat rate can go as high as 8m/s. 
 

If you can help, that would be great.

Cheers,

Boyd

Hiya Boyd, I also have experienced this mysical phenomenon on my timegrapher that can only be answered by true watchrepair gods during their break from being worshipped. But with my very limited knowledge i may have one maybe two ideas that probably  won't be helpful at all. But I also find that initial sarcasm with a hint of patrony quite unhelpful as well.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

But I also find that initial sarcasm with a hint of patrony quite unhelpful as well.

If you have a better way I'm all ears? Were all here to learn did you find my approach inappropriate in some way the only way I'll learn my mistakes is you would just enlighten me?

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

If you have a better way I'm all ears? Were all here to learn did you find my approach inappropriate in some way the only way I'll learn my mistakes is you would just enlighten me?

Ok I wasn't keen on broaching this and I did have a little rant about it yesterday.  Maybe you haven't grasped what I was saying regarding the watchrepair gods comment. No I don't have a better way because I'm a beginner, like the chap that asked a simple question. Now I'm not naming names because that's childish, who I'm referring  to know who they are. Or maybe not, in which case they don't know they are doing it. Sarcasm when directed at an individual's knowledge, know how, comprehension,  way of explaining things when asking a question really isn't nice. There is a lot of very inexperienced folk on here, that try their best to convey their watch problems, and are often met with sarcasm, and sometimes quite patronising comments by other members with much more experience that think they are the dogs bs. If not that then a flood of incomprehensible answers in all manner of differing contexts that they haven't  got a clue what to do with. And please don't say it doesn't happen because it does, I've seen it I've read it. I've only just joined here, after having visited many times over the last nine months that same seemingly superior attitude cropped up over and over and tbh held me back from becoming a member, but I thought hey let's give it a go, I can leave if I don't like it or get banned if I open my gob. I'm sorry but I'm standing up for the ones that have felt belittled or just don't want to make a fuss about it. It hasn't happened  to me YET, but I certainly  won't put up with it if it does. All I'm asking for is a little respect for those of us that don't know a great deal or struggle to grasp even simple  explanations. What might be simple and obvious to higher ranking members might be hellish complicated to a beginner.  We do appreciate  any help that's been given we really do but I for one don't appreciate the manner in which I've seen it can sometimes be delivered. If I've offended anyone then I'm sorry, I'm not an argumentative sort of bloke or a push over either. Hopefully we can let this go. If I receive a sensible answer then I will discuss it further, but I'm sure I've covered it. Thanks 

[Boydie]

On 4/10/2022 at 9:18 PM, nickelsilver said:

What watch? Is it recently serviced? Is everything working correctly?

 

The timing machine is (sometimes the first, just to get a look) usually the last thing you look at after servicing a watch. The cause of your issues is somewhere in a laundry list of possible causes. I love that watch repair has become a popular hobby but diagnosing and repairing watches is also a profession that takes years of school and years more to become proficient. If your watch was made 50 years ago and the service history is unknown it really needs a full service. If it's a year old, warranty work. 5 years old, probably a service.

 

For anyone to give more than pure speculative responses we'll need to know the caliber, the amplitude (must know the lift angle to tell your machine), and a pic or two or three, of the balance and hairspring from top and as much as possible from the side to even guess.

 

If your rate is changing so much with beat error correction you likely have a regulator setup where the beat arm also moves the regulator arm. And/or the hairspring is not true. Or- (the laundry list begins.. )

Thanks. Attached some images. The 3 that are running fast is the best I can do with as AS1951 movement. I can adjust the rate and beat rate on the balance but it’s been a 3 hour fight of tweaking to get close.  
 

The next one is a Felsa 4002. It’s all over the place, it went like this after I tried demagnetising it, but the balance spring looks fine. It shows the amplitude as really high, but in reality it’s actually really slow, almost ready to stop!
 

anything you could advise or help would be greatly appreciated.

cheers

Boyd

[Klassiker]

45 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

We do appreciate  any help that's been given we really do

Some do, some just take it for granted. Others are too lazy to use the search function and read what is already available. This from someone somewhere in the middle, able to offer advice, but still asking questions, so maybe in a good position to see both sides. Yes, sometimes there is a response on here which I consider a bit harsh when replying to a beginner, I've been guilty of it myself, but just remember, it might be the umpteenth time that particular god has addressed a similar question, with the same paucity of information to enable a diagnosis. The basic requirements have been spelled out many times. Those gods also post on here voluntarily, in their spare time, because they want to help. They are also free to leave this forum, if it stops being fun. Maybe a little more tolerance and reflection on both sides is the answer?

 

[JohnR725]

Timing machines are interesting devices? They listen to the ticking sound of the watch and display things based on whatever they receive. Usually for the results to be valid three things have to be right. Visually the watch has to agree with whatever the timing machine is showing. The numbers and the graphical displays have to agree.

22 minutes ago, Boydie said:

The next one is a Felsa 4002. It’s all over the place, it went like this after I tried demagnetising it, but the balance spring looks fine. It shows the amplitude as really high, but in reality it’s actually really slow, almost ready to stop!

This is a perfect example of super low amplitude on the timing machine. The timing machine interprets the waveform which is made up of five sounds overlapping as the amplitude decreases the width of the waveform gets longer. At some point in time the timing machine does not have the intelligence to grasp what it's looking at and will sense the signals in the middle of the waveform and give you a very happy amplitude numbers. Usually you'll have a suspicion because the other numbers may not look right and visually the balance wheel will tell you looks like crap.

Another thing that happens with low amplitudes is everything gets magnified it looks much much worse. So basically when you look at a timing machine and your dropping below 180° than all the rest the numbers should be viewed with a certain degree of suspicion of not being correct.

So basically the timing machine has done its job it's told you that all your watches are in desperate need of servicing. 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

Some do, some just take it for granted. Others are too lazy to use the search function and read what is already available. This from someone somewhere in the middle, able to offer advice, but still asking questions, so maybe in a good position to see both sides. Yes, sometimes there is a response on here which I consider a bit harsh when replying to a beginner, I've been guilty of it myself, but just remember, it might be the umpteenth time that particular god has addressed a similar question, with the same paucity of information to enable a diagnosis. The basic requirements have been spelled out many times. Those gods also post on here voluntarily, in their spare time, because they want to help. They are also free to leave this forum, if it stops being fun. Maybe a little more tolerance and reflection on both sides is the answer?

 

Thank you Klassiker for your reply and for your middle ground on this. I'm at the far bottom end of the scale and understand how we at this end feel when subjected to condescending behaviour, that isn't fun. I can't speak for all of us, but yes there are lazy people in all walks of life that want things handed to them on a plate. But also some of us really just want to talk to someone and have things explained to us first hand in way we can understand and learn from and maybe connect and aspire to that member. I catch myself thinking while watching various skilled youtubers "wow I wish could turn a balance staff". We really do appreciate the time that is given up to help us and that goes double for the staff that run the forum. Without places like this to spend our time this amazing hobby and profession wouldn't  be as enjoyable as it is. I think your last words pretty much sum up what should be expected from everyone here. Thank you

[Neverenoughwatches]

17 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 

Hiya Boyd, I also have experienced this mysical phenomenon on my timegrapher that can only be answered by true watchrepair gods during their break from being worshipped. But with my very limited knowledge i may have one maybe two ideas that probably  won't be helpful at all. But I also find that initial sarcasm with a hint of patrony quite unhelpful as well.

You are very welcome matey. I am very happy to see you spent the rest of your evening receiving useful understandable information without obstacle. It's great to see you moving along, a timegrapher was a big step for me in continuing my interest. Mine would need to be prized from my cold dead fingers before I gave it up.

[watchweasol]

Hi  reading and understanding the results of the timing machine can some times be daunting if you do not understand the functions of the watch especially the escapement because this is the part which generates the noise (tick tock) that the machine interprets in to a display for you to read. With the above in mind I have attached th Witschi training manual for you to read through. Once read you will then understand what the machine is telling you. Timingmachines are a wonderful invention  but they can lead you astray if you do not understand the out put and can lead to further complications.  Years ago when I started they only existed within the sphere of the watchmakers world,  amatuers had to use their ears and eyes or build tic amplifiers but still relied in their hearing. I hope the attached  brings you a little enlightenment.       all the best.

Witschi Training Course.pdf

[Neverenoughwatches]

15 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ok I wasn't keen on broaching this and I did have a little rant about it yesterday.  Maybe you haven't grasped what I was saying regarding the watchrepair gods comment. No I don't have a better way because I'm a beginner, like the chap that asked a simple question. Now I'm not naming names because that's childish, who I'm referring  to know who they are. Or maybe not, in which case they don't know they are doing it. Sarcasm when directed at an individual's knowledge, know how, comprehension,  way of explaining things when asking a question really isn't nice. There is a lot of very inexperienced folk on here, that try their best to convey their watch problems, and are often met with sarcasm, and sometimes quite patronising comments by other members with much more experience that think they are the dogs bs. If not that then a flood of incomprehensible answers in all manner of differing contexts that they haven't  got a clue what to do with. And please don't say it doesn't happen because it does, I've seen it I've read it. I've only just joined here, after having visited many times over the last nine months that same seemingly superior attitude cropped up over and over and tbh held me back from becoming a member, but I thought hey let's give it a go, I can leave if I don't like it or get banned if I open my gob. I'm sorry but I'm standing up for the ones that have felt belittled or just don't want to make a fuss about it. It hasn't happened  to me YET, but I certainly  won't put up with it if it does. All I'm asking for is a little respect for those of us that don't know a great deal or struggle to grasp even simple  explanations. What might be simple and obvious to higher ranking members might be hellish complicated to a beginner.  We do appreciate  any help that's been given we really do but I for one don't appreciate the manner in which I've seen it can sometimes be delivered. If I've offended anyone then I'm sorry, I'm not an argumentative sort of bloke or a push over either. Hopefully we can let this go. If I receive a sensible answer then I will discuss it further, but I'm sure I've covered it. Thanks 

John. I've had a little time to think and having a good night's sleep calms the mind. I would like to apologise for going in a bit too hard yesterday. Less said can be enough to get a point across to make ones think. More said can antagonise and prolong finding a resolution. An appreciated response from a fellow member did bring some validation for certain behaviourism that goes on which i took on board but still regard this as no real excuse. This is a very close personal issue to me that caused me to take some out of character decisions and actions a few years ago, that I deeply regret. But were needed to prevent a devastating consequence if I had done nothing. I hope we can move forward from this as I'm sure you will agree that everyone that spends time and gives up their precious time to be here, to contribute whatever they can IS a valuable member. We all make mistakes and like you have commented we all should learn from them whatever they are.

[Neverenoughwatches]

46 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  reading and understanding the results of the timing machine can some times be daunting if you do not understand the functions of the watch especially the escapement because this is the part which generates the noise (tick tock) that the machine interprets in to a display for you to read. With the above in mind I have attached th Witschi training manual for you to read through. Once read you will then understand what the machine is telling you. Timingmachines are a wonderful invention  but they can lead you astray if you do not understand the out put and can lead to further complications.  Years ago when I started they only existed within the sphere of the watchmakers world,  amatuers had to use their ears and eyes or build tic amplifiers but still relied in their hearing. I hope the attached  brings you a little enlightenment.       all the best.

Witschi Training Course.pdf 4.65 MB · 0 downloads

Thanks WW. I will also use this if that's ok.

[watchweasol]

 Hi Never enough   By all means,  down load a copy. . Its placed here for all to share .  the information I post is from the public domain and freely available if you are prepared to trawl the net which I do, At 78 I gave up running races.  So please make as much use of any data which I put up on the forum, and that means everybody.  Its placed on the forum for all to share as thats what the forum is all about sharing young , old   experienced professionals ( of which we have quite a few) and the Amatuers ( some as good as the pros) whos information I read. I can understand that some data cannot be shared by reason of copyright but there are kind souls who post the relavant parts  if not the whole who deserve our thanks.      all th best.

[Boydie]

6 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  reading and understanding the results of the timing machine can some times be daunting if you do not understand the functions of the watch especially the escapement because this is the part which generates the noise (tick tock) that the machine interprets in to a display for you to read. With the above in mind I have attached th Witschi training manual for you to read through. Once read you will then understand what the machine is telling you. Timingmachines are a wonderful invention  but they can lead you astray if you do not understand the out put and can lead to further complications.  Years ago when I started they only existed within the sphere of the watchmakers world,  amatuers had to use their ears and eyes or build tic amplifiers but still relied in their hearing. I hope the attached  brings you a little enlightenment.       all the best.

Witschi Training Course.pdf 4.65 MB · 3 downloads

That’s amazing, thanks, I look forward to reading soon!

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, watchweasol said:

 Hi Never enough   By all means,  down load a copy. . Its placed here for all to share .  the information I post is from the public domain and freely available if you are prepared to trawl the net which I do, At 78 I gave up running races.  So please make as much use of any data which I put up on the forum, and that means everybody.  Its placed on the forum for all to share as thats what the forum is all about sharing young , old   experienced professionals ( of which we have quite a few) and the Amatuers ( some as good as the pros) whos information I read. I can understand that some data cannot be shared by reason of copyright but there are kind souls who post the relavant parts  if not the whole who deserve our thanks.      all th best.

Hi WW. Would you mind if I ask you a personal sort of question ? don't worry it is watch related. It's regarding your age.

[LittleWatchShop]

One question that was asked several times: Have the watches been serviced?  I read through the thread and do not see an answer.  The answer to that is the sine qua-non of going forward.

In reading this thread, I had a chuckle or two.  When I first joined, I locked horns with @JohnR725over some issue that was peripheral to horology as I recall.  After being on this forum now for about 16 months, I can say that @JohnR725is indeed one of the horological gods here.  He has enlightened me on a number of occasions as has @nickelsilverand @watchweasol.  The ability to tap these guy's brains is of immeasurable value to me...thus my regular attendance to this forum.  Many others have helped me too...

Anyway...back to watches.  Let us know about the service of these watches.  Also, do you have a watch that you know is functioning properly, i.e., keeping time on your arm?  Might be useful to put it on the Weishi and make sure it is running properly.  In spite of the fact that I was one of the designers of the microcontroller used in the Weishi, it can make errors...OH NO...unlikely MY CHIP causing the problem, however...could be circuitry designed by someone else!!

[watchweasol]

Hi Never no problem ask away, my age is no secret its only a number after all   cheers.

[Neverenoughwatches]

29 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Never no problem ask away, my age is no secret its only a number after all   cheers.

Thanks WW for indulging me. I was wondering how much age will affect my ability to continue to enjoy # tinkering # with watches. ( I've recently decided to choose my words carefully so as not to upset certain people who have taken umbrage to something I said and also #may# have overstated and have decided not to talk to me anymore ). I was a joiner and builder by trade and loved every day I worked but have had to take early retirement due to joint issues. Fortunately I saw it coming 10 yrs ago and made good financial decisions to see me through. And now that I've developed this passion  for watch repair I'm hoping it will last a long time. I have a very steady hand, and good nerves (tweeking hairsprings on my second project ). But I am worried about my eyes and how the constant changing of naked eye to glasses to loupes to microscopes will affect them as age moves on.

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, watchweasol said:

I can understand that some data cannot be shared by reason of copyright but there are kind souls who post the relavant parts 

Copyrights definitely present a challenge. Typically my generalization policy is if it's available out there on the Internet and I can freely downloaded I can post it here. Some of the stuff I have has been acquired by purchasing it and some of the people selling it have indicated that its copyrighted. Some stuff there is no indication in which case I don't worry about it. Or other stuff I acquired so long ago I just don't worry about it. But there is some stuff that the people indicate is copyrighted and then I might snip something out I'm not going to violate somebody's copyright at least knowingly.

Then you get the peculiar problem of stuff I've acquired off of websites that it's no longer available and it probably is copyrighted when it was on the website but it no longer exists that's a problem. The BHI used to have some really nice helpful stuff on the website that seems to all be missing now? It was a interesting mix of things some PDFs to download and helpful tips and things that were not PDFs. Basically there on the website but you can still save those in a variety of ways but I assume those are copyrighted which is why they're not the get distributed.

Then there is the other problem probably more scary that copyright problem? Reason why it's more scary is we don't know why they're doing this it must be a reason? We just don't know the reason

for instance is a link below cousins has a lot of technical documentation. The only minor catch is sometimes it's not complete they've acquired the documentation at least a lot of it for the parts availability so some of the service guides are not entirely their but still really useful site.

If you look at the link and go there you get a sampling of Omega working instructions download number 40 at the minimum the lubrication guide. Then look at the corner of every single page you'll see more or less the image below. My Acrobat is currently broken disparately unknown problem of all the white pages are now yellow. But you'll get the idea I enhance the image below see you could see something more clearly every single page is watermarked with where it came from.

Suppose you had access to Swatch group documentation? Would you jeopardize that access by freely distributing your watermarked documents? That is why sometimes people post snippets of things they snip out from forbidden documentation that's for some unknown reason is watermarked.  At least that's my guess as to why you sometimes get snippets of things and don't get the whole document they don't want to **BLEEP** off the Swatch group gods and have their account that they access terminated.
https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=Working

[watchweasol]

Hi John  thanks for the explanation to which I alluded in my post. It should dispel thoghts that we dont post the complete document but bits thereof,  we are not holding information back but its just that we cant post in full because of the restrictions imposed upon us. But if we can we do. Thanks again John.

[watchweasol]

Hi Never T  At my age things have degenerated somewhat. Being a diabetic with other medical problems you learn to cope. My evesight is not as good as it was and myhands suffer a bit from joint pain and cold but I still manage to do jobs. At the moment an Omega 342 bumper,  Oris ladies 410 (Balance), seiko 7005 overhaul, citizen E810 and an alarm clock. so age is no restriction you just work round the problem. My workshop is external to the house and can get cold so I built a portable bench (Tabletop) and in the winter work in the spare room curtesy of the Misses.

So as far as aging goes just ride the wave and adapt.

An other point if I may on this forum we like discussion and to certain degree indulge contributers as a lot are from around the world and are not English speakers but use translation sofrware and some times the translation does sound  a bit harsh , but I for one cut a bit of slack and are quite happy that they contribute and the information is always well received. If I may in defence of John say that his information and help has always been genuine, he is entitled to his opinion as we all are. I think its time we put all this to bed and got back to hat we do best WATCHES and CLOCKS.

All the best and keep asking the questions.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

An other point if I may on this forum we like discussion and to certain degree indulge contributers as a lot are from around the world and are not English speakers but use translation sofrware and some times the translation does sound  a bit harsh , but I for one cut a bit of slack and are quite happy that they contribute and the information is always well received.

There's another problem? Not just translation software but some of us use dictation software. That means the words that I say magically appear on the screen hopefully? Sometimes dictation software does not quite get it right. But it never makes a spelling mistakes you can't find the bad words that way.

Meaning of this is that oftentimes to get things right I might do things multiple of times until it appears to be readable. Often times I won't notice the peculiar wrong word here or there or whatever. All I was trying to do was have fun and answer questions and share knowledge. 

[watchweasol]

Yess indeed John I forgot that  you had mentioned it before that you use the dictation S/w  and its not foolproof. You input is always appreciated.