Timex M24 fast

[rfitts46]

1977 (1605002477) i resuscitated a M24 movement by removing the movement out of the back of the case and did some palpitations of the balance wheel to no avail. Then did some reading on the non-serviceable Timex design, watch smith nightmare, and did a dunk into my lacquer solvent  and went upstairs to lubricate. Still no beating from the balance wheel. Then used my CRC with lubricant and doused it a couple times and low and behold it came back to life. Felt like a heart surgeon watching the balance wheel oscillate.

 

Found it to be fast played with the adjuster seemed like i was getting close to bottoming the slow adjustment.

Took it back out of case doused in solvent and re-lubricated to make sure the balance wheel didnt have oil on it.

Still fast, 5 minutes fast in 12 hr period. adjustor is bottomed.

Any advice?

[watchweasol]

Hi If there is extra balance spring in the stud you could try lenghening the spring, but in doing that you will need to re adjust the beat error.

[JerseyMo]

is this the first vintage Timex you have worked on?

[rfitts46]

JerseyMo, I picked up three vintage watches...2 Timex and 1 Kelton last month. This is the first I revived by soaking movement in lacquer solvent and lubing. It required a couple shots of an electronics aerosol cleaner lubricant before the balance pully started oscillating. It has been reliable except for random  balance pulley stoppages. It was fast. It is currently back apart and was considering breaking this one apart.

The second Timex I did completely break down and successfully got it back together. This is a M27 movement. The dial face was missing all its attachment tangs. I have bonded four small pieces of .010" brass to replace these. one of the four did come off and I will try rebonding.

[JerseyMo]

6 hours ago, rfitts46 said:

JerseyMo, I picked up three vintage watches...2 Timex and 1 Kelton last month. This is the first I revived by soaking movement in lacquer solvent and lubing. It required a couple shots of an electronics aerosol cleaner lubricant before the balance pully started oscillating. It has been reliable except for random  balance pulley stoppages. It was fast. It is currently back apart and was considering breaking this one apart.

The second Timex I did completely break down and successfully got it back together. This is a M27 movement. The dial face was missing all its attachment tangs. I have bonded four small pieces of .010" brass to replace these. one of the four did come off and I will try rebonding.

did you remove the balance cap during cleaning?   

[rfitts46]

JerseyMo, no I didnt. That would be removing the screw with the integrated Vconic bearing that allows adjusting the amount of compression on the balance pulley shaft end. If that is removed the balance pulley disengages from the pallet fork? The hairspring is still attached the movement.

Is it possible to clean both of the Vconic bearings with the balance pulley adjustment screw removed?

How does one go about cleaning the Vconic bearing?

[rfitts46]

JerseyMo when I separated the end plates on the M27 movement I was shocked at what I saw. I was taking images of the disassembly but when the end plates separated the escape pully moved as well as the pallet fork. The seconds hand pulley stuck in the top end plate. Did not think that I would get it back together with all the parts out of the original position.

One thing that I learned was to solvent bath prior to disassembly. Components might not have moved around as much because they would not be sticking to the oil. Any ways I found why the movement was not working. This is the watch missing all four dial face attachment tangs. One of the tangs had lodged itself into the gears of the mainspring cylinder. So I removed that and immediately went into a reassembly panic. I was able to get it back together and it operates correctly now. Where can one find a replacement dial face? 

[rfitts46]

I am thinking that using the electronic aerosol cleaner lubricant as a last resort to getting the balance wheel to oscillate is not a good idea since it gets lubricant on everything and possibly the hairspring if it gets in the path of the spray.

 Went and looked at the Timex M24 instructions and it states to clean and oil both balance pulley bearing cups.  

Do you always wear finger cots when working on a movement? I do not have any and am starting to realize with everything being coated with oil and not using finger cots is bad practice.

The M27 I believe is a 1975 with markings 26850 02775. This is the watch that could use a replacement dial face.

 

 

[jdm]

2 hours ago, rfitts46 said:

I am thinking that using the electronic aerosol cleaner lubricant.

I don't know what that is? Maybe WD40 labeled for electrical (not electronic) contacts, never to be used on watches. Normally electronics uae Isopropyl alcohol to clean, which it's fine to mechanical watches, including on the hairspring. 

2 hours ago, rfitts46 said:

as a last resort to getting the balance wheel to oscillate

If you have to do strange thing for the balance to move be reassured it will not oscillatate enough anyway. 

 

2 hours ago, rfitts46 said:

 am starting to realize with everything being coated with oil and not using finger cots is bad practice.

For sure the problem is not due to that, simply said the cheaper the movement the more difficult ti get it running even just acceptable. They are on a thin line already when leaving the factory and are not really made to be taken apart. That's why they are absolutely not recommend to beginners. 

[rfitts46]

I have removed the screw/bearing so that is easily lubricated. The bearing looks somewhat clean...tried a wooden toothpick but it seems too large to get to the bottom of the bearing. Suggestions on how to clean the bearing...drop it in solvent? Then oil. 

I am not looking to remove the hairspring peg. 

Hesitant to lift the other end of the balance shaft out of the other bearing.

Is it difficult to get the pallet fork re-aligned to the impulse stem if the lower shaft of the balance wheel is lifted out of the other bearing?

Is it possible to leave the hairspring attached to the movement and get to the lower bearing?

Edited March 31, 2022 by rfitts46

[HectorLooi]

Let me see if I got you correctly. You separated the movement plates without unpinning the hairspring. Was the balance wheel dangling by the hairspring when the plates were separated?

If it was, then chances are the hairspring has deformed. Can you post some good close up photos of the hairspring? 

[watchweasol]

Like Hector I would like to see some pictures, Reading your method ology of cleaning etc It sounds a bit out of tune, oil spray no finger cots, once assembed and balance removed re clean the movement in Isopropyl Alchol dry and lubricate using a needle/oiler and oil the bearings/pivots only and drop a little oil into the mainspring, clean the Vconic bearings with pegwood clean balance pivots with pith and polish and re fit.   I have attached the service manual which explains the service philosophy which is best adhered to.

timex 1961 service manual.pdf

[rfitts46]

9 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Let me see if I got you correctly. You separated the movement plates without unpinning the hairspring. Was the balance wheel dangling by the hairspring when the plates were separated?

If it was, then chances are the hairspring has deformed. Can you post some good close up photos of the hairspring? 

HectorLooi, no the end plates have not been separated. Just the endcap (screw with vconic bearing has been removed. Reluctant to unpin hair spring. How is the hair spring adjustor connected to the endplate?

Edited April 1, 2022 by rfitts46

[rfitts46]

Just purchased a set of pin oilers. I was using a larger gravity oiler with onboard oil reservoir. Great for the wind up clock maintenance but too large for wrist watches.

[rfitts46]

How do you clean the vconic bearings and pivots on the balance wheel.....add lots of detail please?

To be able to clean pivots the balance wheel needs to be removed from the movement.

[watchweasol]

Hi  To clean the VConic  use peg wood, its a close grain wood which can br shaped to a sharp point without splitting this is then insterted into the bearing and twirled to remove old oil. The bearings are then cleaned in Iso or Ronsonol lighter fluid and dried.  the balance conic pivots can be polished on a lathe if you have one or pushed onto some watchmakers pith  and cleaned that way. use a light oil on the balance bearings just a smear dont fill the bearings with oil.  Never had need to remove a regulator arm as they are quite robust but from what I remember they a fitted to the plate (rivited).  It is best to remove the balance to avoid damage to the spring and to give access to the staff pivot.

I take it that youu have the service manual for this movemnt ?.

[rfitts46]

34 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  To clean the VConic  use peg wood, its a close grain wood which can br shaped to a sharp point without splitting this is then insterted into the bearing and twirled to remove old oil. The bearings are then cleaned in Iso or Ronsonol lighter fluid and dried.  the balance conic pivots can be polished on a lathe if you have one or pushed onto some watchmakers pith  and cleaned that way. use a light oil on the balance bearings just a smear dont fill the bearings with oil.  Never had need to remove a regulator arm as they are quite robust but from what I remember they a fitted to the plate (rivited).  It is best to remove the balance to avoid damage to the spring and to give access to the staff pivot.

I take it that youu have the service manual for this movemnt ?.

Watchweasol, I do have the M24 Timex manual. Isn't one end of the hairspring attached to the regulator? And if so to completely remove the balance wheel  require removing wedge on one end of the hairspring and the regulator arm on the other end?

To gain enough access to clean old oil out of vconic bearing pressed into end plate will require separation of the end plates. Was trying to avoid that.

But will proceed to do so.

What is pith?

[rfitts46]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  To clean the VConic  use peg wood, its a close grain wood which can br shaped to a sharp point without splitting this is then insterted into the bearing and twirled to remove old oil. The bearings are then cleaned in Iso or Ronsonol lighter fluid and dried.  the balance conic pivots can be polished on a lathe if you have one or pushed onto some watchmakers pith  and cleaned that way. use a light oil on the balance bearings just a smear dont fill the bearings with oil.  Never had need to remove a regulator arm as they are quite robust but from what I remember they a fitted to the plate (rivited).  It is best to remove the balance to avoid damage to the spring and to give access to the staff pivot.

I take it that youu have the service manual for this movemnt ?.

watchweasol just downloaded the 1961 service manual. Did not have that. I have the small manual maybe 8 pages for the M24 movement. Will review the manual you provided for more info. Thanks

[watchweasol]

Hi   The spring is a ttached to the frame with the wedge/pin the regulator is the novable part through witch the spring is treaded before being pinned to the frame. the regulator is then free to move on an arc effectivly lenthening (slowing) or shortening (fast

Pith is a soft wood from the insied of Elder trees and is ised for cleaning and absorbing oil etc,  If you google watchmakers pith wood you will see what  I mean. 

[JerseyMo]

On 3/31/2022 at 9:46 AM, rfitts46 said:

JerseyMo, no I didnt. That would be removing the screw with the integrated Vconic bearing that allows adjusting the amount of compression on the balance pulley shaft end. If that is removed the balance pulley disengages from the pallet fork? The hairspring is still attached the movement.

Is it possible to clean both of the Vconic bearings with the balance pulley adjustment screw removed?

How does one go about cleaning the Vconic bearing?

the cap needs to be oiled as well as the vconic bearing.  if the pallet fork slips out of position, it is easy to put back into place.

[JerseyMo]

On 3/31/2022 at 9:56 AM, rfitts46 said:

JerseyMo when I separated the end plates on the M27 movement I was shocked at what I saw. I was taking images of the disassembly but when the end plates separated the escape pully moved as well as the pallet fork. The seconds hand pulley stuck in the top end plate. Did not think that I would get it back together with all the parts out of the original position.

One thing that I learned was to solvent bath prior to disassembly. Components might not have moved around as much because they would not be sticking to the oil. Any ways I found why the movement was not working. This is the watch missing all four dial face attachment tangs. One of the tangs had lodged itself into the gears of the mainspring cylinder. So I removed that and immediately went into a reassembly panic. I was able to get it back together and it operates correctly now. Where can one find a replacement dial face? 

add a pic of the dial, I may have one

 

[rfitts46]

JerseyMo the Timex 1961 service manual that watchweasol supplied a link to explains quite a bit more than the 8 page Timex M24 service manual that I had obtained.

I will forward an image of the 1975 day date M27 movement dial face. I am also looking for a black second hand for the 1977 M24 movement that we have been discussing here.

I reviewed the balance wheel removal section in the Timex 1961 service manual. The end of the hairspring that is secured at the adjustor is loose, not mechanically secured. The spring tension keeps the hair spring in place at the adjustor? 

[rfitts46]

the dial face for the 1975 day date M27 movement. I believe the color is blue to match the hands.

[JerseyMo]

only one I have is this -   

[JerseyMo]

37 minutes ago, rfitts46 said:

JerseyMo the Timex 1961 service manual that watchweasol supplied a link to explains quite a bit more than the 8 page Timex M24 service manual that I had obtained.

I will forward an image of the 1975 day date M27 movement dial face. I am also looking for a black second hand for the 1977 M24 movement that we have been discussing here.

I reviewed the balance wheel removal section in the Timex 1961 service manual. The end of the hairspring that is secured at the adjustor is loose, not mechanically secured. The spring tension keeps the hair spring in place at the adjustor? 

have a look here - https://heritage1854.com  for more Info on movements.

black seconds hand...no problem I can list under my seller id.

Timex used a small brass wedge pin to keep the end of the hair spring in place.  Is that missing?