Timex M24 fast

[rfitts46]

17 minutes ago, rfitts46 said:

Jersey, please do. Bob

Jersey you have one of those white plastic rings that go around the movement. Movement space? For the M27....

[JerseyMo]

14 hours ago, rfitts46 said:

Jersey you have one of those white plastic rings that go around the movement. Movement space? For the M27....

yes I do

 

[JerseyMo]

Here is my m27 project.  from trash to treasure,

[rfitts46]

On 4/5/2022 at 10:49 AM, JerseyMo said:

Here is my m27 project.  from trash to treasure,

Jersey, is the dial that you replaced have blue on the hands and a ring around the dial?

[rfitts46]

alright after having sometime to monitor the timing it is still fast. When I view the hairspring it does appear to have a two coils along the outermost periphery that seem to be clinging.

When cleaning the balance and spring when removed how does one determine that all residual oils are removed from the hair spring. I noticed that when immersed into the solvent and removed that the solvent itself due to its surface tension properties allows the coils to cling to one another. Let sit for awhile with an occasional strumming all the solvent flashes off and the individual coils are not touching. 

After pinning the spring the coils should be closer to one another...is it possible that because the solvent makes the coils come together that there is not effective oil removal? it would be nice but almost impossible to wipe both surfaces of the coils not allowing them to come in contact with each other and let dry.

Next steps find a compass and see if the watch has any effect on it. Might just purchase the demagnetizer and occasionally demagnetize the tools....good practice.

Remove balance....yay...and dip spring into solvent again and reinstall. Check to see if it all coils stay separated when operating.

[rfitts46]

1 hour ago, rfitts46 said:

Jersey, is the dial that you replaced have blue on the hands and a ring around the dial?

the reason I ask is the M27 that I have with the damaged dial face the hands have a stripe of blue in the center and a small annular blue area on the outside perimeter of the face.

[JerseyMo]

34 minutes ago, rfitts46 said:

the reason I ask is the M27 that I have with the damaged dial face the hands have a stripe of blue in the center and a small annular blue area on the outside perimeter of the face.

nope

[rfitts46]

Used a dime store compass that was on the end of a walking stick. Not sure if it was a mirage or not but convinced myself there was movement of the needle when the watch was drawn nearby.

Ordered the blue Chinese demagnetizer. Should be here Monday. Want to demagnetize all the small tools I have been using on the watches.

[JerseyMo]

Model 27 back to life after a session at the "JerseyMo Vintage Timex Health Spa" .

[JerseyMo]

31 minutes ago, JerseyMo said:

Model 27 back to life after a session at the "JerseyMo Vintage Timex Health Spa" .

 

- day wheel is hanging up when it gets to Fri...will have to give it a double dip in the pool.

[rfitts46]

tested my tools for magnetism they all indicated using the dime store compass. Definately  no regret buying the demagnetizer. Will report in if it changes the M24 running fast situation. Should receive it Monday.

[rfitts46]

Alright doesn't appear that demagnetizing this movement is going to change the fact that it runs well but it is 5-10 minutes fast over 24 hour period. Thinking that the balance wheel should be removed again for cleaning?

Just looked at the hairspring and there are a couple coils that appear to be too close to one another.

I am thinking this is an amplitude issue. 

[HectorLooi]

If your smartphone has a slow motion video recording mode, film the balance for about 15 seconds and see if the coils are sticking to each other.

If I remember correctly, the hairspring was sprayed with contact cleaner. Some contact cleaners contain silicone which can be really difficult to clean off. If you have an ultrasonic cleaner, try putting some benzine in a small jam jar and put the whole balance with the hairspring in it and ultrasound it for 10 minutes.

[rfitts46]

Okay thanks to JerseryMo....I ordered some M27 parts and he graciously included a couple M24 movements and a bunch of other goodies.

The balance wheel from one of these movements was removed. Removed the balance from the watch that is running too fast and installed the new balance. The hairspring has been threaded and needs to be pinned to be able to test it. 

While both balances were out .......a comparison does indicate that the old balance spring did have some deformation ....slight but deformed. 

Will report in after pinning the donor balance with the results.

 

 

 

 

[rfitts46]

Got the hairspring pinned and set the wobble of the balance wheel last night. The movement is up and running.

Learned by looking at the hairspring under a 20X stereoscope that the formed offset hook at the end of the hairspring is not formed at 90 degrees but more like 45 degrees. 

When I first got it pinned it wanted to curl up towards the end plate not stay parallel with the balance wheel. Pulled pin back out and reseated with same result. 

I was able to stop it from wanting to do this by moving where the formed bend in the spring sat against the hole where the wedge goes into. It took three pinnings but I was pleased with the balance spring staying parallel with the balance.

Now onto getting the dial face and hands back on to see how she runs. 

[rfitts46]

48 minutes ago, rfitts46 said:

Got the hairspring pinned and set the wobble of the balance wheel last night. The movement is up and running.

Learned by looking at the hairspring under a 20X stereoscope that the formed offset hook at the end of the hairspring is not formed at 90 degrees but more like 45 degrees. 

When I first got it pinned it wanted to curl up towards the end plate not stay parallel with the balance wheel. Pulled pin back out and reseated with same result. 

I was able to stop it from wanting to do this by moving where the formed bend in the spring sat against the hole where the wedge goes into. It took three pinnings but I was pleased with the balance spring staying parallel with the balance.

Now onto getting the dial face and hands back on to see how she runs. 

Just sat at the table this morning before sipping on coffee and mounted dial and hands. Test is ongoing.

[JerseyMo]

On 4/14/2022 at 7:07 AM, rfitts46 said:

Just sat at the table this morning before sipping on coffee and mounted dial and hands. Test is ongoing.

well done.  welcome to the Timex club

 

 

[rfitts46]

alright testing confirms watch is still running fast. Maybe 6 minutes in 10-12 hour period. 

Looking to acquire a used stereoscope so I can see the formed offset of the mainspring relative to the hole with the wedge in place.

want to investigate affect of lengthening the hairspring as hectorlooi mentions. Two different balance wheel/spring assemblies resulting in similar outcome.....watch runs too fast.

There is...just guessing .03-.04 inches of mainspring in the wedge hole. If backing out the hairspring and moving the formed offset area of the spring .01-.015 inches away from the wedge hole will slow the movement.....I would find rewarding to experience that.

Does anybody know if Timex did not just insert the mainspring and bottom the formed offset to rest against the wedge hole but that  the position of the formed offset relative to the wedge hole was an adjustment that was used to get the movement timed correctly?

[Shane]

On 4/18/2022 at 2:12 PM, rfitts46 said:

Does anybody know if Timex did not just insert the mainspring and bottom the formed offset to rest against the wedge hole but that  the position of the formed offset relative to the wedge hole was an adjustment that was used to get the movement timed correctly?

I have never done anything but this.  The spring as you have said (if I remember correctly) rides the inside of the regulator and I have always needed to pull the spring to a larger OD to reach the anchoring hole.  That tends to drive the spring into the hole when released, stopping on that offset in the spring.  There has always been sufficient range for regulation.

Do me a favor.  If the other movement is still in operable condition, put the first balance into the second movement and see if you get the same results that have been frustrating you previously.

There are very bright people here and if you're still having a problem we should find out what it is.

I will recharge my phone and reread this from the beginning.

Shane

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 4/18/2022 at 7:12 PM, rfitts46 said:

alright testing confirms watch is still running fast. Maybe 6 minutes in 10-12 hour period. 

Looking to acquire a used stereoscope so I can see the formed offset of the mainspring relative to the hole with the wedge in place.

want to investigate affect of lengthening the hairspring as hectorlooi mentions. Two different balance wheel/spring assemblies resulting in similar outcome.....watch runs too fast.

There is...just guessing .03-.04 inches of mainspring in the wedge hole. If backing out the hairspring and moving the formed offset area of the spring .01-.015 inches away from the wedge hole will slow the movement.....I would find rewarding to experience that.

Does anybody know if Timex did not just insert the mainspring and bottom the formed offset to rest against the wedge hole but that  the position of the formed offset relative to the wedge hole was an adjustment that was used to get the movement timed correctly?

Hi. You seem to using the words mainspring and hairspring interchangeably ? If you have enough hairspring to lengthen from the stud then try that, it will slow the timing. You may well have to move the end curve as well. Fiddly job though so take your time and have bite to eat first.

[GregG]

I used to do a lot of Timex M24s.  Don't believe what you read online, you can have those things stripped apart, cleaned, and reassembled in no time.

The movement plate will take some finessing because you're trying to line up like 6 things simultaneously, but once you get the hang of it it's not bad at all.

[Shane]

Sorry for the delay,

(Unless you are actually moving the regulator in the wrong direction.)

It sounds like an amplitude issue and not a regulation issue.  The whole idea behind an adjustment being used within a design is for accomodating deviations in the manufacturing and assembly process.  Both Timex movements assumedly ran and kept time in 1977 (some may argue that point).  The parts did not spontaneously change size beyond what the factory adjustment was designed to compensate for.  The .030 - .040 of surplus hairspring added to the effective length already available probably will not account for the twelve minutes per day of error and certainly not get the regulator close to the mid point while doing it.  After all the regulator at mid point "while keeping time" was the design goal.  Adjustments in the first to maintain the second were of course acceptable.

A magnified, high speed in focus video of this balance while running would be of great help.  Some sort of electronic monitoring might help someone hear (with that sort of experience) identify the root of your difficulty.

PS,

Don't get discouraged if you feel the first few watches will never beat again.  Set them aside and after you gain experience, pull them out and give them another go.  It's a great feeling and I think, the best way to see that your skills have improved.

Shane

Edited June 4, 2022 by Shane