Offcenter hairspring

[mooredan]

This is from an Elgin size 12, grade 301, 7j, pocket watch movement.  The movement is a "for parts or repair" type and actually in pretty good shape, I think. Runs, but not reliably. Pulled it apart for a cleaning, while looking for issues -- no biggies found like broken/bent pivots or cracked jewels, but did find this.

Looks off center to me, but I'm not experienced enough to say that its bad, or a culprit.  Should this be corrected (if it is indeed an issue)?  If so, please provide some guidance.

Looking forward to your opinions and advice.

Best regards,

Dan 

[Plato]

Looks fine, an overcoil.

[mooredan]

I'm referring to the difference in the gap between the collet and the spring at the top and bottom. I think that the spring is actually touching the collet at the top. Normal or not, I do not know.  this photo from the Breguet we site looks more "centered".  If it doesn't matter, or has neglible effect, then probably prudent not to mess with it. 

 

[watchweasol]

12 minutes ago, Plato said:

Looks fine, an overcoil.

As Plato said   an overcoil. whats wrong with the watch. You said it runs but not reliably. What are the issues  There is a difference in the innercoil leading from the collet but whether that would cause problems is a moot point.

[mooredan]

Dirty, but not excessively, to begin with.  Ticks away when dial down (amplitude seems weak), but after picking it up and putting it in different positions it'll stop (taking care not to touch the balance).  Only thing that I've found so far is a missing dial washer (that copper looking thing that's under the dial that I've seen on other models I've disassembled), a missing screw on the balance cock's cap jewel, and a missing stud on the pallet cock.

Edited January 29, 2022 by mooredan

[Plato]

9 minutes ago, mooredan said:

  If it doesn't matter, or has neglible effect, then probably prudent not to mess with it

Definitely don't mess with a hairspring unless you really have to. I spent hours today correcting a flat hairspring, a Breguet coil must be harder to correct. 

[Plato]

2 minutes ago, mooredan said:

Dirty, but not excessively, to begin with.  Ticks away when dial down (amplitude seems weak), but after picking it up and putting it in different positions it'll stop (taking care not to touch the balance).  Only thing that I've found so far is a missing dial washer (that copper looking thing that's under the dial that I've seen on other models I've disassembled), a missing screw on the balance cock's cap jewel, and a missing stud on the pallet cock.

Clean and oil it first before correcting the escapement.

[mooredan]

Thanks much!

[matabog]

make the correction at the collet. From the picture, it apears to be needed.

[JohnR725]

You do know that we probably grasp what a balance wheel and hairspring looks like? So giving us a second picture means I have to stop and read why the second pictures there just my stupidity of having to wonder why it's there? It looks fine.

A better way to do this would've been may be to zoom in snip out the image attach it like I've done and you're right it's off-center but is also not your problem. Possibly sort of? The off-center should be fixed but if you don't have experience it's not a problem don't worry about it. That close the collet it's not going to move around is not going to be an issue. I would really have to see the hairspring in the watch in a multiple of pictures and angles because the over coil bothers me? But??? Yes the really are three? Symbols after the word but over coils are different they're all different there literally books that show pictures of hundreds of shapes of over coils. So yours may be fine but for being really nitpicky there is something that bothers me but still it's not why the watch is running reliably whatever the heck that means?

12 hours ago, mooredan said:

Runs, but not reliably. Pulled it apart for a cleaning, while looking for issues -- no biggies found like broken/bent pivots or cracked jewels, but did find this.

What is the technical term of not reliably? Do you have access to a timing machine we always like pictures really good for diagnostics.

 

10 hours ago, mooredan said:

and a missing stud on the pallet cock.

What exactly do you mean by this?

 

10 hours ago, mooredan said:

Ticks away when dial down (amplitude seems weak), but after picking it up and putting it in different positions it'll stop (taking care not to touch the balance). 

Timing machine would be really nice. Did you remove the mainspring clean it replace it etc. if the amplitude is weak really weak then moving it around it probably is going to have issues.

The problem is there's a lot of things to look at but I'd really be curious about a decent picture of your hairspring in the watch looking straight down and in sideways. Is your hairspring flat is it touching the balance arms is there over coil touching the upper bridge is it anywhere where it's not supposed to be? Oh and yes I know it's really hard to tell if it's doing any of those undesirable things.

Then there is the other problem vintage watch vintage American pocket watch how many times do you think it's been touched by other people before you? How many of those people knew what they were doing when they were adjusting things? American pocket watches have things that can be adjusted and moved around its amazing how bad things can run if you don't know what you're doing.

 

[mooredan]

What I meant by not running reliably is that it ticks for a while then stops.  It seems to run the longest in the dial down position, but stops within a few minutes (or even seconds) when picked up and manipulated to other positions.  I did not try any other repairs or corrective actions (like clean or replace the mainspring) before disassembly and cleaning.  The mainspring is intact, but doesn't lie flat -- I have a NOS one to go in its place.

I do not have a timing machine, but will have one soon.

I've sorted out the concentric issue, not quite perfect, but the hairspring is not resting on the collet anymore.

 

Then put the hairspring into the balance cock.  Looks like there's some more work to be done:

A bit off center with respect to the center of the jewel.

 

...and not on a parallel plane with the cock (and the collet too?)

 

I'm not sure how, if, or in what order, to address these.

As for the missing stud, here:

 

 

I have another same grade and class movement in worse shape that I could cannibalize the stud from. What would be a good way to remove it from the  cock?

Thanks,

Dan

 

 

 

 

[JohnR725]

If this was a Rolex I be worried about your hairspring but it's not your hairspring still isn't your issue. Then would really have to see the hairspring with balance in the watch as to whether it's even going to be an issue there.

Pallet fork bridge you just have to be careful when you put it on because it's missing the other PN that it could be off a little bit. Did you notice there's a serial number on the bottom you ever wonder why it's there? In an American pocket watch all the plates have serial numbers that's because everything the bridges were all made for that watch. If you start cannibalizing other watches to make a good watch it may make things worse. So just be aware that when you're tightening down the screw that you make sure the pallet fork looks like it's straight and not tilted because you're missing the pin.

6 minutes ago, mooredan said:

What I meant by not running reliably is that it ticks for a while then stops.  It seems to run the longest in the dial down position, but stops within a few minutes (or even seconds) when picked up and manipulated to other positions.  I did not try any other repairs or corrective actions (like clean or replace the mainspring) before disassembly and cleaning.  The mainspring is intact, but doesn't lie flat -- I have a NOS one to go in its place.

I think we need to address the problem of your watch isn't running at all before you get obsessed with making your hairspring absolutely perfect in a watch that doesn't actually run at all.

If you take the pallet fork out and attempt to wind the watch does the gear train spin effortlessly?

[mooredan]

Yes, I noticed the serial numbers, and the one scratched in the arms of the balance wheel -- they all match.

I was referring to pulling the locating stud/pin out of a donor's pallet cock versus swapping out the pallet cock itself.  Turns out that it's probably not needed because between the other pin and the screw there's very little play.

Cleaned, reassembled and lubricated. Replaced the mainspring, and got a dial washer to replace the missing one. Found out why one of the screws for the upper balance cap jewel is missing -- the threads are stripped out.

With pallet fork removed, the train spun with the slightest nudge to the barrel. Also installed the balance wheel with no hairspring or pallet fork installed. A puff of air sent it spinning for many seconds.

It is running better now in that it does not stop after a few minutes or when handled. Ran over 24 hours, gaining a couple of minutes, while sitting dial up. https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/collection/editdetails/132565

The timegrapher arrived and here are graphs from three positions:

Dial Up:

 

Dial Down:

 

Pendant Up:

 

I think that I know how to improve the beat error (position of hairspring collet on balance staff), but don't know how to interpret the rest. Especially the dial down.  Is the amplitude acceptable?    I don't know what to expect.  Thank you.

 

[JohnR725]

The timing machine has a minor issue in that the lift angle is wrong so you and I be off a little on the amplitude but not this much off typically.

You want to establish a timing procedure in other words wind the watch up all the way and let it run at least 15 minutes up to one hour. Because were in a rush sure you're in a rush I'd wait 15 minutes then time it dial-up and dial down and at least one crown position. Allowing 30 seconds between changing positions to stabilize otherwise you get silly readings and you'll see that when you rotate the microphone it takes about 30 seconds to stabilize and let it run 30 seconds before you actually take a picture get the numbers and then see what things look like

Then I assume you also lubricated the watch including the escapement?

Then the biggest thing is the amplitude is way way way too low everything else is going to look really bad like it does.

 

[mooredan]

The power-on default for the lift angle is 52 degrees. I found this chart here: https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/pocket-watch-lift-angle.173360/

(this movement is an Elgin size 12). If 55 degrees is incorrect for this movement, what should it be?  Yes, I understand the its effect is minor.

I pretty much followed the procedure that you outlined.  Waiting a few minutes between measurements allowing the measurements to stabilize.  I took the measurements after winding it fully and letting it run overnight.  I'll take them again.

BTW, I'm a patient fellow and have, what I think, is a respectable attention to detail.  

Yes, I did lubricate the watch, including the escapement. D5 (for the setting/winding works), HP 1300 (center, third, fourth), 9010 (escape wheel, palette arbor and a minute amount on the underside of the balance cap jewels), and 9415 pretty much following several different demonstrations found in youtube (JD Richard, Wristwatch Revival, My Retro Watches, Watch Repair Channel) -- no one does it exactly the same but the pattern is thicker-to-thinner moving through the train (oiling only the pivots). The exception is that nearly all use 9415 on the pallet jewel/escape wheel teeth (how they apply it is different though).  I actually did not lubricate this spot initially and looked at the amplitude before and after. I observed that the amplitude went from around 100 degrees to what is shown above.

Do you know what the amplitude should be expected for this movement? Thank you.

[Nucejoe]

 You have one locating pin of the fork cock missing and the other one seems a bit dislocated therefore jewel holes to fork pivots would be out of alignment,  so I wonder if this fork swings back and forth as freely as it should to deliver a decent impulse to the oscilator, this can explain the low amplitude your getting, which low amplitude renders all other numbers your tg shows invalid. 

 Beside isochronism, overcoil allows for larger amplitude of oscilation, in some good grade watches as big as 300 degrees. I just guess you should see somewhere between 230 to 280 degrees.

Regards 

[mooredan]

The three positions (DU, DD, PU) taken again with ten minutes of stabilization each, and default L.A. of 52 degrees:

What I'm hearing is that the low amplitude issue needs to be addressed first.

Nucejoe, this is a 7 jewel movement and doesn't have jewels for the pallet fork pivots. 

Further steps in diagnosing the problem?  Thank you.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, mooredan said:

I found this chart here: https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/pocket-watch-lift-angle.173360/

I do find that a rather amusing message that you are quoting? That name looks so familiar oh wait I know why it looks familiar I believe that's my name nice that you're quoting something that I did from another message board.

1 hour ago, mooredan said:

If 55 degrees is incorrect for this movement, what should it be? 

You'll notice in the discussion that you quoted the reference that I should've written down serial numbers the movements so that we would know exactly which movement were talking about.

Then at that low of an amplitude you should be able to visually look and see that it looks really bad. Because that is definitely a very very bad amplitude.

If it was a little bit higher he went back the way you'll see above somewhere it talks about how to figure out the lift angle but you need to be at least 180° and you're not there at all. But even with the amplitude not exactly right and yes still be a little variation it still gives us a clue that it looks pathetically bad. So if you do anything to make it look better even if it's not exactly right we can tell that things are getting better rather than worse that's of helpfulness. It also gives us a clue as to whether dial-up and dial down at the same As they should be identical.

 

1 hour ago, mooredan said:

lubricate the watch, including the escapement. D5 (for the setting/winding works), HP 1300 (center, third, fourth), 9010 (escape wheel, palette arbor and a minute amount on the underside of the balance cap jewels), and 9415

Invisible to everybody but currently have too many windows open I noticed that you've done a reply and I can't get at the quote in this message because I can't do this message in the other window So I can't quote something

lubrication on and I see you indicate this is a seven jewel watch that changes things a little bit

if you look at the manufacturer's site on the HP oils there only recommended for jeweled bearings they're not recommended for steel on brass. That means they recommend the D5 it actually has a use

I find personally for watches that D5 on the setting wheels or other modern watches they recommend HP oils incorrectly but in real life a grease is much preferred over oil. Greece has the ability to stay put and can handle the heavier loads especially on pocket watches. So I would think of finding some sort of Greece I would make a recommendation but what I like it work is really expensive so I'm not going make that recommendation.

Pallet fork arbor 9010 wonderful except we don't recommend lubricating it as it has a habit of decreasing amplitude. It's supposed to be no lubrication typically.

As I said the HP oils are not recommended for steel with brass so on a seven jewel watch you'd use D5 but personally I think it's a little heavy for the entire gear train. I personally like 9020 except for the center Wheel where I either use D5 or one of the HP oils which would be 1300.

Then for the balance end stone lubrication I'm attaching an image. You can clean it assemble it dry. Place a small drop in the concave portion by the pivot were actually in the hole for the pivot. Then using a really thin wire and they ask he make a tool for doing this war I find a much smaller balance staff you can bleed the oil down to where it's supposed to go. In the image that I snipped out it shows if you do it wrong it's off-center so ideally you can look in and see a dark spot where the oil is. But on American pocket watches the jewels for variety reasons don't allow you to do that C do need to just make sure you get what you think is right quantity of oil you have a gun super minimalistic and if you go too much that it touches the sides and it has a habit of capillary action wicking away and not doing its job eventually.

Then regarding lubrication a for lucky that's the only issue here? Notice I snipped out another image one line is nice the other line is not nice that's bad. It can be a whole variety of things it's usually considered to be one side of the escapement the problem is you can't look at one line and say it's this side of the outside it's just one side of the escapement is right the other side is not. Occasionally it can be the roller jewel if it's loose sometimes ill move in one direction it won't move and the other it's always good on pocket watches to gently grab the roller jewel and make sure it's tight but don't break it off just have to make sure it's not wobbling around

I also snipped out an image of a timing machine manual to show you. Initially to just try something sometimes this will come up if you haven't got your lubrication quite right on the escapement which is why asked you how you lubricated your escapement. Each of the pallet stones has to have lubrication on the stone itself. So one of the stones is dry you will have that exact of fact on the timing machine. As we don't know which stone it is you can take a small amount of 9415 and apply it to the impulse face of each of the stones and see if it makes any difference at all. If it does not make a difference shall have to take the fork out rinse it off so it's nice and clean and see if there's any chips are problems with the stone.

Then it be nice to have a picture of the balance wheel in the watch not running so I can see the balance wheel itself and where the regulator currently is

 

 

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

32 minutes ago, mooredan said:

Nucejoe, this is a 7 jewel movement and doesn't have jewels for the pallet fork pivots. 

Further steps in diagnosing the problem?  Thank you.

So is it brass holes?      brass or stones,  If out of alignment it will eat amplitude, might even stop the escapement.

With a locating pin missing, I am not sure if the holes are aligned, are you?   

 

 

 

 

 

[mooredan]

Here's a slow motion video of the movement:

I removed the hands, dial, and cannon pinion -- no change.

Photos:

 

 

 

 

The holes are as shown in the photos.  Just drilled through with the plating.   There's a photo of the the pallet cock and its pivot hole earlier in this thread.

Alignment, I'm not 100% sure on that. But when I was installing it, I lightly snugged down the pallet fork cock screw, then grabbed the pallet fork cock and tried to move it from side to side -- there was virtually no play so I concluded that between the remaining pin and the screw things were ok.  I may try to remove a pin from a donor movement -- not sure how to go about it without marring it.

Looks like I'll be cleaning and re-lubing from the escape wheel to the balance.  Any more photos that would be helpful?

 

[JohnR725]

I think your lift angles definitely wrong. It looks to me like you're going well over 180° he should look at the video on how to figure out lift angle and figure out what the lift angle for your watch is supposed to be. But it's still not super superhigh it still it's better than whatever it is indicating now

2 hours ago, mooredan said:

I may try to remove a pin from a donor movement -- not sure how to go about it without marring it.

The last Elgin that I took out of pin I held it in a lathe collet really really tight and it actually unscrewed it was threaded in. But seeing as how yours is missing you can look and see if it looks like it's threaded or whether it was friction Doone. Otherwise you sent to grab the existing one was something really really really tight and twist.

Then I've attached a picture always hard to tell with over coils you have to look at them from multiple angles and this angle doesn't look good. Notice where circled it looks like it's touching the top of the bridge if it is that's why you're running fast. Also look like your stud was up may be a little bit if you lowered at her hair down then this problem might actually go away.

Then the balance wheel looks nice and round sometimes the arms get either been in her out they look fine. Unfortunately don't have any timing screws to change the regulation. But you could move the regulator toward slow and see if it slows you down enough.

I'm attaching another image looking at this and looking at their balance wheel you're well over 200° amplitude your amplitude then looks fine nifty video is right. Developed the arm that goes under the bridge it goes all the way up around it goes past 180 and looks like it's really approaching about its past 220 5C amplitude is probably fine we just need the proper lift angle.

This is one of the minor problems of relying on a timing machine is if the lift angle is wrong which yours appears to be if you're slow-motion video is correct then we get all bent out of shape over your low amplitude that doesn't actually exist. Then we can start the worry about other stuff and you do need to check to make sure they hairspring is not touching the bridge at the point I indicated

[Woolshire]

Watching the video, I see amplitude not good at all. Looks like about 130 deg. Should be at bare minimum at least one full revolution for a 180 deg amplitude. Remember, amplitude is half the total rotation.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Woolshire said:

Watching the video, I see amplitude not good at all. Looks like about 130 deg. Should be at bare minimum at least one full revolution for a 180 deg amplitude. Remember, amplitude is half the total rotation.

It appears to be I'm having one of these mentally challenging days of looking at the video. This of course is why get a timing machine so I don't have to look at videos and get confused. So after staring at the video for a while I agree it's hundred and 30° or thereabout in other words it totally sucks.

 

 

[Nucejoe]

 As hairspring hits underside of the cock, it might push the coil ( 180 degrees accross ) down  which in turn hits a spoke, so a side view video of the coil whilst oscilator running might show the fault. 

Regards

[mooredan]

11 hours ago, Woolshire said:

Watching the video, I see amplitude not good at all. Looks like about 130 deg. Should be at bare minimum at least one full revolution for a 180 deg amplitude. Remember, amplitude is half the total rotation.

Yes, I agree. The visual of the amplitude is in the same ball park as what is being measured by the timegrapher.