Making a Roller Table

[jdrichard]

Has anyone made a roller table for a pocket watch. Upon punching out a roller table, it cracked….not a good day. I am planing on making one out of brass or steel. Need some advice here as I have never done this job before on a lathe.

[JohnR725]

On 1/25/2022 at 3:27 AM, jdrichard said:

Upon punching out a roller table,

Just for clarification it cracked when you removed it?

Usually they end up cracked when people put them on and don't pay attention to the staffing size. In other words the new staff is supposed to be correct they don't waste their time measuring to see of it actually agrees with the old and they don't worry about cracking things. The end up with the roller table cracked and sometimes the hairspring collet.

The vintage ones like this are usually made out of steel but you can get a magnet to verify. I'm pretty sure all the new ones in modern watches are made out of brass.

Yours looks pretty simple? I assume there's a separate safety roller because I don't see the cutout next to the roller jewel? Even though the original is made out of steel There is no reason you couldn't make one out of brass.   You do have to carefully get the distances right in other words from the center of the staff were the roller jewel is needs to be reasonably close it fits in the fork properly.

Then this kind of thing is more of watch manufacturing. You probably look in the book like Daniels wrote on watchmaking I'm sure he would probably tell how to make a roller table. Along with the entire rest of the watch. I know I've seen somewhere where someone talked how to make the single roller but to remember where I saw that whatever is going to be impossible so I know it's out there but this looks reasonably simple compared to a lot of other stuff you might have to make.

[Nucejoe]

 How would you go about setting the jewel so its curved side correctly faces the fork ?    wouldn't it affect the impulse and lift angle if set incrrect? 

The distance( radius) where the flat side of jewel is to be positioned  can be marked when you have the workpiece on lathe. I think this flat side is to simplify setting the jewel . 

 

 

[JohnR725]

10 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

How would you go about setting the jewel so its curved side correctly faces the fork ?

Before they figured out how to drill half round holes the old ones used to be round. So typically on the old single roller table tables it's a pain in the something to get the jewel Where it is supposed to be. So then you have the problem of making sure it straight and parallel and not leaning and rotated so it's facing exactly were supposed to be. Nice when they figured out how to get away from a round hole.

[JohnR725]

One of the interesting thing is about the Internet is you're probably not the first one to do this. This link somebody's making a fancy roller table it's not even round. Then he didn't make the hole with the drill you will note there usually punched out conveniently skims over that but he does mention that

https://www.historictimekeepers.com/Vacheron Roller Table.htm

I suppose you might get lucky with this assortment. Unless of course you already have an assortment of broken watches miscellaneous balance wheels and so forth they really come in handy when you're working on pocket watches for stealing parts from

https://www.jewelerssupplies.com/hamilton-illinois-18s-0s-pocket-watch-roller-table-assortment-03-5062-959.002.0001.html

 

 

[Nucejoe]

  Hi John,

 

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

skims over that but he does mention that.

Yes he does, unfortunately

  I expect a slugish running oscikator if impulse jewel is incorrectly faces the fork. 

 The question remains, how to set the impulse jewel so its flat side is prependicukare to the radius paasing through that sides( flat) midpoint. Perhaps a special tool is needed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jdrichard]

13 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Just for clarification it cracked when you removed it?

Usually they end up cracked when people put them on and don't pay attention to the staffing size. In other words the new staff is supposed to be correct they don't waste their time measuring to see of it actually agrees with the old and they don't worry about cracking things. The end up with the roller table cracked and sometimes the hairspring collet.

The vintage ones like this are usually made out of steel but you can get a magnet to verify. I'm pretty sure all the new ones in modern watches are made out of brass.

Yours looks pretty simple? I assume there's a separate safety roller because I don't see the cutout next to the roller jewel? Even though the original is made out of steel There is no reason you couldn't make one out of brass.   You do have to carefully get the distances right in other words from the center of the staff were the roller jewel is needs to be reasonably close it fits in the fork properly.

Then this kind of thing is more of watch manufacturing. You probably look in the book like Daniels wrote on watchmaking I'm sure he would probably tell how to make a roller table. Along with the entire rest of the watch. I know I've seen somewhere where someone talked how to make the single roller but to remember where I saw that whatever is going to be impossible so I know it's out there but this looks reasonably simple compared to a lot of other stuff you might have to make.

It’s a single roller so should be easier. I think the hardest part will be drilling the hole to the correct diameter. I may need to get it close and then taper the staff as I fit the table. There was a very small notch in front of the jewel.  I could use a jeweling reamer to finalize the hole as I test fit.

[jdrichard]

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 How would you go about setting the jewel so its curved side correctly faces the fork ?    wouldn't it affect the impulse and lift angle if set incrrect? 

The distance( radius) where the flat side of jewel is to be positioned  can be marked when you have the workpiece on lathe. I think this flat side is to simplify setting the jewel . 

 

 

This could be the toughest job yet. Setting the jewel means drilling a very small hole and somehow jigging it up so the square side is forward.

[Nucejoe]

1 minute ago, jdrichard said:

This could be the toughest job yet. Setting the jewel means drilling a very small hole and somehow jigging it up so the square side is forward.

Hi Jd.

I bet there is a special tool for this task.

Regs

[jdrichard]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

One of the interesting thing is about the Internet is you're probably not the first one to do this. This link somebody's making a fancy roller table it's not even round. Then he didn't make the hole with the drill you will note there usually punched out conveniently skims over that but he does mention that

https://www.historictimekeepers.com/Vacheron Roller Table.htm

I suppose you might get lucky with this assortment. Unless of course you already have an assortment of broken watches miscellaneous balance wheels and so forth they really come in handy when you're working on pocket watches for stealing parts from

https://www.jewelerssupplies.com/hamilton-illinois-18s-0s-pocket-watch-roller-table-assortment-03-5062-959.002.0001.html

 

 

Interesting technique belittling not well described. First, why did his table not need to be round? Second, how did he “punch” the hole for the impulse jewel. Third. How did he make the hole size exact.  Btw, this company asked it I was interested in working for them:)

[jdrichard]

6 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Hi Jd.

I bet there is a special tool for this task.

Regs

You are likely correct. It would be a jig to hold everything in place while you heat up the shellac.

[praezis]

46 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

The question remains, how to set the impulse jewel so its flat side is prependicukare to the radius paasing through that sides( flat) midpoint. Perhaps a special tool is needed.

You will drill a smaller hole and punch out the rest with a punch that has the same profile as the jewel (punch must be made).

Frank

[nickelsilver]

For a single roller like this, Daniels describes a method that doesn't require a shaped punch. Turn and drill the center hole the table, part off. Turn and file a pin to the shape of the roller jewel, harden and temper. Drill the roller table for the full diameter of the roller jewel. Then the trick(y) part, holding the table firmly in a smooth jaw vice, place the steel pin in the hole for the roller jewel, and place a piece of blue steel of a correct diameter on the edge where the crescent should be formed, and give it a blow with a hammer. This will form the crescent, and close the hole around the shaped pin. I did it once many years ago and it did work. 

 

Drilling undersize and punching does work, but in my experience a simple shaped punch doesn't work nearly as well as a stepped punch, which can be tedious to make at this size if you aren't accustomed to it. However, since the thickness of the table is roughly the same as the hole diameter on a part like this a simple punch will work, and any distortion can be cleaned up on graded abrasive paper or a fine diamond hone (or any fine stone).

[jdrichard]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

For a single roller like this, Daniels describes a method that doesn't require a shaped punch. Turn and drill the center hole the table, part off. Turn and file a pin to the shape of the roller jewel, harden and temper. Drill the roller table for the full diameter of the roller jewel. Then the trick(y) part, holding the table firmly in a smooth jaw vice, place the steel pin in the hole for the roller jewel, and place a piece of blue steel of a correct diameter on the edge where the crescent should be formed, and give it a blow with a hammer. This will form the crescent, and close the hole around the shaped pin. I did it once many years ago and it did work. 

 

Drilling undersize and punching does work, but in my experience a simple shaped punch doesn't work nearly as well as a stepped punch, which can be tedious to make at this size if you aren't accustomed to it. However, since the thickness of the table is roughly the same as the hole diameter on a part like this a simple punch will work, and any distortion can be cleaned up on graded abrasive paper or a fine diamond hone (or any fine stone).

So steel on steel with the pallet fork would not be an issue?

[praezis]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

For a single roller like this, Daniels describes a method that doesn't require a shaped punch.

Great tip that serves two tasks at the same blow.

I had to make a double roller once and used the mentioned punch.

Frank

[Nucejoe]

 Easy to think of ways to make a roller table, without the need to make a tool with profile of the jewel.

 Invisige two coins glued together.   got the idea?   so 

1- Turn a table of same OD as the broken one, go ahead drill its center hole as well plus a hole for the jewel ( about the same or larger diameter ) 

2-Heat the shellac to push the jewel half way sticking out the other side,   you then have the jewel sticking out of both sides. 

3-Insert the protion of the jewel thats sticking out into the hole you drilled ( on the table you made)

4-Shellac the jewel to the roller you made.

5- Heat the shellac on the broken table to take the broken table out of your hair. 

This will  hold the jewel in best practical coordinate for you to shellac. I think. 

 

 

[nickelsilver]

2 hours ago, jdrichard said:

So steel on steel with the pallet fork would not be an issue?

No no no- the steel pin goes in the hole, then the hole gets crushed by whacking a bar or punch with the right radius to form the crescent, which forms the crescent and closes the hole around the pin. Now you have a hole the correct shape for the jewel--- the pin is pulled out, roller cleaned up (there will be burrs and some deformation), and ideally hardened and tempered, polished, then the roller jewel gets fitted.

 

Here's an image from Gazeley's Watch and Clock Making and Repairing that's clearer than the Daniels image (there's a lot in Daniels' book that is also in the much older Gazeley...).

 

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by nickelsilver

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Here's an image from Gazeley's Watch and Clock Making and Repairing that's clearer than the Daniels image (there's a lot in Daniels' book that is also in the much older Gazeley...).

I suspected that that's where I saw that procedure because I knew I had seen it before.

But a lot of American pocket watches had round holes it really isn't an issue. A lot of American pocket watches have holes that are bigger than I would like to have its still not an issue it's just a pain you put the roller jewel in you put the shellac on you warm it up and then you very carefully get it all in alignment where it's supposed to be it can be done it's not as nice as if you have a hold the exact right size but it can be done you don't need a special tool you just did a little warm shellac and some tweezers and a lot of patience

Then while I said you don't need a special tool I assume that you do know that there is a tool to hold the roller table either where it's on the staff or it's off? I'll get a picture of that just so were all on the same page these I just assume that everyone knew that this tool exists but if you're modern watch repair why would you know such a thing.

Then because they were all in the same lecture I snipped out a few more images of roller jewel things. Even though they don't show a round jewel they did exist at one time.

That are variety of tools used to do the task the one that's labeled figure 12 is the most common one that's the most common tool available. It becomes an interesting procedure of holding the tool putting it in alcohol lamp melting the shellac hopefully not too much then holding on to the tool not touching anything because it's hot and carefully manipulating roller jewel.

Then found another image of what I call the conventional tool the advertising it can also be used to hold pallet forks.

Then I do know that there are other tools out there because I've seen one that holds the roller jewel nice and secure you lay the table on top of it then you keep that up either with the shellac reported after it's warm but it holds the jewel nice and straight get the table exactly where you want and then you go a put it back on the watch as opposed to doing it on the watch where things get really complicated.

[jdrichard]

12 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I suspected that that's where I saw that procedure because I knew I had seen it before.

But a lot of American pocket watches had round holes it really isn't an issue. A lot of American pocket watches have holes that are bigger than I would like to have its still not an issue it's just a pain you put the roller jewel in you put the shellac on you warm it up and then you very carefully get it all in alignment where it's supposed to be it can be done it's not as nice as if you have a hold the exact right size but it can be done you don't need a special tool you just did a little warm shellac and some tweezers and a lot of patience

Then while I said you don't need a special tool I assume that you do know that there is a tool to hold the roller table either where it's on the staff or it's off? I'll get a picture of that just so were all on the same page these I just assume that everyone knew that this tool exists but if you're modern watch repair why would you know such a thing.

Then because they were all in the same lecture I snipped out a few more images of roller jewel things. Even though they don't show a round jewel they did exist at one time.

That are variety of tools used to do the task the one that's labeled figure 12 is the most common one that's the most common tool available. It becomes an interesting procedure of holding the tool putting it in alcohol lamp melting the shellac hopefully not too much then holding on to the tool not touching anything because it's hot and carefully manipulating roller jewel.

Then found another image of what I call the conventional tool the advertising it can also be used to hold pallet forks.

Then I do know that there are other tools out there because I've seen one that holds the roller jewel nice and secure you lay the table on top of it then you keep that up either with the shellac reported after it's warm but it holds the jewel nice and straight get the table exactly where you want and then you go a put it back on the watch as opposed to doing it on the watch where things get really complicated.

Thank you. I do have all these tools and have made many videos on how to use them to replace or tighten the camera mousse jewel. It’s making the table that will be fun. I also have the Danials book that has a write up on how to make a roller table, but there a few steps left out I feel.

[jdrichard]

19 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

No no no- the steel pin goes in the hole, then the hole gets crushed by whacking a bar or punch with the right radius to form the crescent, which forms the crescent and closes the hole around the pin. Now you have a hole the correct shape for the jewel--- the pin is pulled out, roller cleaned up (there will be burrs and some deformation), and ideally hardened and tempered, polished, then the roller jewel gets fitted.

 

Here's an image from Gazeley's Watch and Clock Making and Repairing that's clearer than the Daniels image (there's a lot in Daniels' book that is also in the much older Gazeley...).

 

 

A ha!  I just bought the book as well. Now I must have all the books on watchmaking:). Thanks, I shall try this weekend 

[nickelsilver]

26 minutes ago, jdrichard said:

A ha!  I just bought the book as well. Now I must have all the books on watchmaking:). Thanks, I shall try this weekend 

It's really great book!

[jdrichard]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

It's really great book!

Thanks for the reference, you can’t have too many watchmaking books:)

[Tmuir]

Dragging up an old thread but how did you get on?

If you have deep pockets Archie B Perkins has a whole chapter in Volume II of Antique Watch Restoration on how to do this and even how to make different shaped roller jewels from round jewel stock.

His books go into great detail on how to make all sorts of parts for antique watches.