1940? Elgin Pocket Watch

[EmuGuru]

I recently received this little gem from my father, who I believe got it from his. I know little to nothing about watches except what I’ve learned reading and watching videos of watch repairs in the last 48hrs. The crystal is yellowed, and cracked along the edge, causing it to fall out of the bezel constantly, and appears slightly damaged by some chemical. The balance wheel’s shaft’s pivot points (what are these called?) are broken, causing the balance wheel to sit on the .... base plate? And not turn freely. Otherwise i think its in good shape. Would anyone recommend trying to replace the balance shaft, or just trying to find an entire balance complete to replace? And the crystal.... should I stay with the acrylic and replace it or use glass and some form of cement to hold it in? Any thoughts, comments, questions, or advice would be super welcome!

[Nucejoe]

   Aren't watch glasses all made flat or faceted, you would need a domed crystal.

 A staffed balance requires poising which is not a simple task so a ready balance complete is your best bet. 

Good luck

[GomBoo]

Nice watch. The dial stands out, they are easily cracked be careful. Size 16s. 3000 made in '40

Serial Number SN Range Quanty Name Year grade size code jewels Adj/reg/etc. -------------- -------- ------ ---- ---- ----- ---- ------ ------ ------------ 39858593 39856001 3000 1940 387 16s o3n7p 17j e

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by GomBoo

[EmuGuru]

Thanks for the tips and info guys, i will begin searching for a complete balance, after looking into poising, and replacing the staff itself....... yessir that appears well above my pay-grade and far surpasses my measly toolset lol

[JohnR725]

On 5/13/2021 at 5:25 PM, EmuGuru said:

entire balance complete

I really wouldn't do that. One of the reasons they serial numbered watches was to keep track of everything. Like all the plates will have the ending part of the serial number. Typically the balance wheel has the serial number scribed on the arms.

Then there is the other little problem? I have a link below that talks about your watch including the parts looks like you need balance staff 861 but which one? Which also means if you get another balance wheel that has the same staff is it going to have the right staff? Which of course is a really stupid question because you just need 861? One of the problems with American pocket watch staffs typically are they come with different pivot sizes. Than Elgin was even more creative than just pivots size variation often times there can be other variations like this staff comes in either new style or old-style you know which one you have? You can't tell the parts list you have to actually measure the staff.

Then when was the last time this watch was serviced? It looks to be a really beautiful Condition it probably hasn't been serviced that much. That means it should be entirely disassembled cleaned lubricated and should have a new mainspring in addition to the balance staff. Plus you need to check the balance jewels and make sure they didn't get broken in whatever caused the pivots to break

 

On 5/13/2021 at 6:43 PM, Nucejoe said:

Aren't watch glasses all made flat or faceted, you would need a domed crystal.

This definitely looks like the original Crystal it came with the watch domed plastic. Typically it's inserted with a press it's held in by friction no glue required. So if you're trying to keep the watch original replace it with another plastic crystal.

 

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/39858593

[Klassiker]

The "glass" looks like it could be celluloid or cellulose acetate, which will be difficult to replace exactly, but acrylic is close in terms of feel and function. I don't know what collectors say about the importance of originality. I would take it to a professional for a service and a new balance staff (well actually, I would let a rank amateur do it i.e. me, but you should go to a pro). A beautiful watch, congratulations!

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, Klassiker said:

The "glass" looks like it could be celluloid or cellulose acetate, which will be difficult to replace exactly, but acrylic is close in terms of feel and function. I don't know what collectors say about the importance of originality.

Whatever it is its related to cellulose nitrate because they burn really nice.

Then I didn't realize that crystals like this were hard to get? I would've assumed because they made thousands of pocket watches in this country that you can still get plastic pocket watch crystals? Yes I assume it be a different kind of a plastic but they would still look like the same thing wouldn't they?

Edited May 18, 2021 by JohnR725

[EmuGuru]

John, thats a really great point about the serial numbers, i definitely want to keep as much original as possible. Thanks for pointing that out! Also great points about the staff, since this is my first, no I have no idea which I have, i will do some measuring and hunting before committing to anything or anyone. As for service, I honestly doubt it ever has, the rest of my family isn't known for their maintenance of things lol. And yes since keeping with originality is my ocd goal, another plastic, cellulose or whatevs it is, is definitely in order. I naively presumed they wouldn't have had plastic domes back in 1940, and assumed it had probably been changed. But I had not thought of cellulose based crystals. And it definitely is as you pointed out press fit without any adhesive needed. I will definitely dig in and do more research. Thanks John and Klassiker! You've given me a ton to research and learn! Much appreciated!

[Klassiker]

Plastic = acrylic will be easy to get, will look and feel right, will fit nice and tight, will be transparent and will protect the watch from dust and moisture, but it will not be original. I don't know if that is a concern for collectors in general or this owner in particular. It would not bother me in the least and I would not hesitate to replace yellowed celluloid with clear acrylic. If the correct size is fitted, it will not be necessary to use glue.

[diveboy]

replace it with one that fits, if its glass/plastic, doesn't really matter. put the original yellowed crystal in a bag and keep it. if you ever sell it, trade it, include the old crystal and then the next person can decide what to do with it.

I'm **BLEEP** about getting watches back to how they left the factory but recently I have mellowed to the point, you wouldn't drive a restored car with a windscreen you can't see through would you ? so why keep a crystal you can't see through ? 

if the next person is like I was 5 years ago, they can swap the crystal back.

Elgin offered Glass, Plastic.

you will need to find a watch crystal catalog from 1942/43/44 and try and find a match using the measurement. I don't have any from that era. 

I'm pretty sure this is your watch from the 1942 catalog - note the Montgomery dial option

[ijazsaif550]

On 5/18/2021 at 3:08 AM, EmuGuru said:

Thanks for the tips and info guys, i will begin searching for a complete balance, after looking into poising, and replacing the staff itself....... yessir that appears well above my pay-grade and far surpasses my measly toolset lol

Replacing the staff of a watch movement is a complex and highly skilled task that should ideally be performed by an experienced watchmaker. The staff is a critical component as it holds the balance wheel, hairspring, and pallet fork, affecting the watch's timekeeping. To replace the staff, the watchmaker would need to disassemble the movement, remove the old staff, and install a new one. This process involves aligning the staff's pivots with extreme precision, ensuring the correct endshake and end-play, and carefully adjusting the balance wheel for proper amplitude and beat rate. It's a meticulous procedure that requires specialized tools, skills, and experience. If you're not a professional watchmaker, attempting to replace the staff yourself can lead to significant damage to the movement and may be best left to experts in the field.