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VWatchie

Despite Kluber P125 this Orient/Seiko mainspring slips way too soon

Question

I’m still struggling to get a decent power reserve on my Orient cal. 46E40. As far as I can tell and as a reference, the barrel and spring seem to be identical to the Seiko cal. 7S-series, for example my Seiko cal. 7S36B.

As a replacement I use a brand new Generale Ressorts # GR2378X mainspring (0.95 x .12 x 400 x 10.5 Automatic). In my first attempt I used Moebius 8217 but only got about 24 hours of power reserve. I then read what I could find about it here on WRT and got inspired by this post by @nickelsilver. So, I got myself some emery paper, rubbed the wall so that the brass shone through and applied a thin layer of Moebius Glissalube A 8213 to the barrel wall. To keep the barrel steady while lubricating I shoved a smoothing broach in the hole of the barrel. However, when I was to remove the broach from the barrel it had gotten stuck in the barrel hole, and not realizing the broach is super finely threaded, and left threaded at that, I ruined the barrel trying to get it out of the hole :pulling-hair-out:

So, I had to source a new barrel, and let me assure you, Orient and their retailers won’t be helpful. Eventually, I found a seller on eBay in Spain who knew the barrel between my Orient cal. 46E40 and Orient cal. 46943 are identical and I bought a scrap movement from him and extracted the barrel.

After two weeks of waiting for the new (used) barrel, I decided not to rub the wall of the barrel but instead buy some uber-expensive Kluber P125 and apply it to the best of my ability in accordance with this post by @JohnR725. However, this only lessened the power reserve to about 17 hours. So, I took the barrel apart and took the below pictures of what I saw. Don’t know what the pictures add but nevertheless...

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I’m beginning to feel extremely frustrated about this and don’t know what to try next. Perhaps rub the barrel wall to expose some of the brass and apply Glissalube A? Perhaps no braking grease at all? Perhaps the replacement General Ressorts spring in some way just isn’t compatible with Japanese barrels? I’m really lost here and don’t know where to go next. So, some help and inspiration would be greatly appreciated.
 

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8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I’m afraid I’m not convinced as these springs are quite brittle. Have you tried it?

Yes, for example the mainspring that I bought for the EB 8201 walk through needled a  bit of correction at the terminal. 

8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Any particular technique to preserve its durability?

I don't think is needed, but check what annealing does. 

8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Well, that’s good to know. Very insightful. I’m sure you belong in that category.

I believe that you and I are still learners in the art of repairing. Good to concentrate on that, not everything can be resolved by clicking on buy buttons. 

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11 hours ago, jdm said:

Yes, for example the mainspring that I bought for the EB 8201 walk through

I Googled "EB 8201" (site:watchrepairtalk.com EB 2801) but nothing came up. Can you please provide a link? I don't even know what an "EB 8201" is.

And while on the topic of links; as a service to my fellow members, I always try to include a link when I make a reference to something I've read or created on the WRT or elsewhere so that they don't have to spend their precious time on trying to find something that cost me so little to provide. And, it makes me feel good! ^_^

11 hours ago, jdm said:

check what annealing does. 

I must say, that's sounds like a pretty interesting idea. I will definitely try it. Thanks! Unfortunately, that will make me click a "buy button" or two as I'll be needing a spirit lamp and some methanol. I guess my "good repairer/watchmaker" score will take a hit, but if I can get that GR spring to work in my Orient it'll be worth it ;).

Edited by VWatchie

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16 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I Googled "EB 8201" (site:watchrepairtalk.com EB 2801) but nothing came up. Can you please provide a link? I don't even know what an "EB 8201" is.

And while on the topic of links; as a service to my fellow members, I always try to include a link when I make a reference to something I've read or created on the WRT or elsewhere so that they don't have to spend their precious time on trying to find something that cost me so little to provide. And, it makes me feel good! ^_^

I must say, that's sounds like a pretty interesting idea. I will definitely try it. Thanks! Unfortunately, that will make me click a "buy button" or two as I'll be needing a spirit lamp and some methanol. I guess my "good repairer/watchmaker" score will take a hit, but if I can get that GR spring to work in my Orient it'll be worth it ;).

Jdm's walkthrough titled " EB 8021 servicing"

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52 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

For any future readers, just click the link above and you won't have to search for it! I just love links! :biggrin:

Anyway, as far as I can see the otherwise excellent walk through doesn't contain a description of the correction of the mainspring, but if @jdmwants to tell us a bit more about it or have something to add I'd be an ardent reader!

Edited by VWatchie

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2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

, but if @jdmwants to tell us a bit more about it or have something to add I'd be an ardent reader!

Take small pliers in one hand, mainspring in the other, make an outward 3° bend about 3mm from the end. That is enough for a manual winding mainspring to positively engage its stop groove in the barrel.

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On 7/16/2020 at 6:38 AM, jdm said:

I don't think is needed, but check what annealing does.

In my case it destroyed the flexibility of the bridle completely, making it dead as a stone (tried it on another spring first). Perhaps I haven't got the right touch, but I'm more inclined to believe the alloy (whatever it is) simply can't withstand high temperatures. So, I simply formed the bridle to look as similar to the bridle of the Seiko/Orient spring as I could and applied a reasonable amount of Kluber P125 to the barrel wall. The result? Well, the power reserve diminished to its worst yet.

So, I'm giving up on the GR spring and will reinstall a used Seiko spring instead. Should have tried it sooner as perhaps the poor power reserve isn't related to the spring. Highly unlikely, yes, but I've learned to take nothing for granted servicing/repairing watches. Anyway, I'll report back to the thread once the Seiko spring is in the barrel.

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Did you mention at any point what amplitude you are achieving on a full wind?

Running duration can be affected by both the number of turns available from the spring, and the load presented by the train. For example, you could achieve 6 turns of the mainspring, but only be able to use 4 of those turns due to the load presented by the going train. 

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Thanks for your input @rodabod!

22 hours ago, rodabod said:

Did you mention at any point what amplitude you are achieving on a full wind?

Yes I did, but in a different thread. Images here and as you can see, no hiccups in the train.  My conclusion (but I guess I could be wrong even if I don't think so) is that the bridle of the GR2378X spring just isn't compatible with certain Seiko (cal. 7S36) and Orient (cal. 46E40, 46943, etc) calibres. The GR bridle simply doesn't exert enough pressure on the barrel wall. As noted previously it is thinner and lacks the introductory and concluding dent of the Seiko/Orient spring.

So, I've just installed an original but quite battered original Orient spring (the only one I was able to source on eBay) in the barrel. Preliminary results are a major improvement. The spring now slips after about 7 revolutions of the ratchet wheel compared to the 3.5-4 revolutions of the GR spring. Anyway, within a couple of days I should be able to report the actual power reserve measures in hours.

The greed of the watch manufacturers are refusing to freely supply parts to hobbyists. To me personally it's beginning to kill the fun and in the long run possibly the hobby :(

Edited by VWatchie

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23 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Anyway, within a couple of days I should be able to report the actual power reserve measures in hours.

Unfortunately, I sometimes have a personality trait like that of most Swedish politicians who live by the brilliant idea that: "if something is good it naturally follows that more of it must be better". You know, like taxes and immigration (and beer, and pressing on barrel lids with force).

So, last night I fully wound the spring only to discover in the morning that it had stopped. Wound it again and put it on my timing machine and the graph was all over the place (having been near perfect after the initial service). I suspect that I leaned way too heavily on the barrel lid and that it now interferes with the spring. I came to think of this as I assembled a Seiko barrel today (identical in design) and looking on the barrel from the side in my stereo microscope to make sure it was fully closed, I noticed, from memory, that the lid on the Orient had looked like it had somewhat "overflowed" the barrel, and then I remembered having pushed the lid hard, very hard. Probably because I missed hearing the click, and being stupid and lazy I really leaned on it, instead of having a look. Anyway, it's just a theory, but right now I'm so fed up with this problem that I'll place the watch in my watch box. Maybe I'll return to it some day, but it will probably be a long time before I touch a Seiko or an Orient again. For some, watch repairing is challenging indeed. In my inner I see Trevor Philips from the video game GTA 5 taunting me with the words: "You look like someone who struggle with simple tasks".

What about Miyota movements!? Do they use the same type of barrel and spring as Seiko?

Edited by VWatchie

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