Where to buy jewel holes?

[VWatchie]

I've been trying to find a supplier within the EU of jewel holes like the ones @Mark is using in the following video:

Ideally, I'd like to be able to order a certain size like the Seitz jewels shown in the video. I was pretty sure cousinsuk.com would have them but they only seem to have assortments of jewel holes. Any suggestions?

Also, in this video (part 1 of 2), Mark is using a "pivot hole gauge". Any idea of where to get one?

And while on the topic, I need to learn more about the various types of jewels and I'm pretty sure I've seen an overview here on WRT, but can't seem to find it!?

[WatchMaker]

You can get specific jewels from Cousins. Look here: https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/jewels-seitz

Good topic here on gauges: https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/4765-what-tool-for-measuring-jewel-holes/

And now for my search tip of the day. Go to google and type in...

"jewel types" site:watchrepairtalk.com

This will get any topic on this forum that has the phrase 'jewel types' in; hopefully you can spot the topic you were thinking of! [I realise the forum has its own search facility but sometimes a search is easier with a browser's search engine].

[VWatchie]

Those Seitz jeweled pivot gauges seem rare and silly expensive and there doesn't seem to be a lot of alternatives. I do have a very fine and exact Bergeon micrometer so I guess I could measure the diameter of the wheel pivot, but I wonder if that would work in practice. What's your experience/advice?

Could this non-jeweled gauge found on eBay possibly be an option? Let me know what you think!

Oh BTW, the link found in this post about how to make your own gauge has transformed into spam...

Edited November 24, 2019 by VWatchie

[watchweasol]

Hi Watchie   I would guess that a precise Micrometer would suffice. the complete gauges just make the job easier in the long run and quicker, hence the price for a labour saving gauge.

[WatchMaker]

If you've just got to see that link here's an archived version: https://web.archive.org/web/20160423192340/http://www.tp178.com/jd/watch-school/3/ws3a.html ! 

If you've got a decent micrometer gauge then you can measure the pivot width. You then need to get the nearest jewel hole size up from that so the pivot moves freely. If you think you'll be replacing jewels often then a gauge is useful thing to have since, as @watchweasol says, it just make measuring quicker and easier. Since any hole gauge is just a bunch of super accurate holes then sure you could go for the non-jewelled version. 

Another way of looking at this however is that if you primarily deal with wristwatches of a limited ligne range (certainly most of what I deal with seem to be 11.5 ligne!) then you'll be dealing with a finite range of pivot/hole sizes. You could then just buy a small range of 'reference jewels' of known hole sizes (but around the size you've measured with a micrometer on a 'typical' movement) to make your own jewelled gauge. 

Edited November 24, 2019 by WatchMaker

[VWatchie]

Thanks for the input! Very much appreciated! 

Well, so I'm lucky then to have my near mint vintage Bergeon micrometer which works perfectly (measured the diameter of some of my Seitz jeweling tool reamers and the hundredths of a millimeter is spot on), so I'll be using it on the few occasions when a jewel needs to be replaced, which is indeed needed now and then. To date I've let some slightly cracked jewels pass, but no more!

[VWatchie]

So, I've just very carefully watched Mark Lovick's "Fitting a new jewel to a watch" videos and it's seems pretty clear how it's done. Except, I'm not sure whether the jewel should be pressed out/in from its flat side or its convex side ("oiling side"). Intuitively, I would guess the flat side, but I'd certainly appreciate your enlightenment!

[nickelsilver]

You can mic the pivots but when you get below about 0.12mm there's a real risk of forming flats on the pivot. The screw mechanical advantage in the micrometer is so great that by the time you feel it "stop" you've made the flats. This is where the jewelled pivot gages shine. The best are the Seitz 'straighteners' that are gaged in 0.0025 increments. Down to 0.06mm if you get lucky. Not cheap, worth every penny.

[VWatchie]

7 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

You can mic the pivots but when you get below about 0.12mm there's a real risk of forming flats on the pivot. The screw mechanical advantage in the micrometer is so great that by the time you feel it "stop" you've made the flats. This is where the jewelled pivot gages shine. The best are the Seitz 'straighteners' that are gaged in 0.0025 increments. Down to 0.06mm if you get lucky. Not cheap, worth every penny.

Oh dang, of course, we're working in the miniaturized realm of watches! So easy to forget. So, of course there's a real risk to flatten the pivots, but I would never have thought of it, so great input! Saw a lot of straighteners of eBay I believe, but didn't realize they could be used as gauges as well. Anyway; Could this non-jeweled gauge found on eBay possibly be an option? Let me know what you think!

[jdrichard]

If your serious about making balance staffs in the future, I would buy the jewelled pivot gauge. This one looks ok for simply sizing pivot ends for purchasing a new staff.


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[jdrichard]

Oh dang, of course, we're working in the miniaturized realm of watches! So easy to forget. So, of course there's a real risk to flatten the pivots, but I would never have thought of it, so great input! Saw a lot of straighteners of eBay I believe, but didn't realize they could be used as gauges as well. Anyway; Could this non-jeweled gauge found on eBay possibly be an option? Let me know what you think!

Straightening pivots can be done with a plate of tweezers if you are very careful.


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[nickelsilver]

Anyway; Could this non-jeweled gauge found on eBay possibly be an option? Let me know what you think!

That's for choosing clock bushings. It does go down to 0.10mm but the increments are 0.05mm which is way to much to be of any use.

[VWatchie]

So, just to make sure; my goal is to acquire the necessary tools and knowledge for replacing any damaged watch jewel. What I have so far is:

1. A complete set Seitz jewelling tool for pressing the old jewel out, the new jewel in and, if necessary, reaming the pivot hole bearing.

2. A precision micrometer for measuring the outer diameter of the old jewel so that I can source a fitting replacement jewel.

3. A supplier to order the new jewel (thanks @WatchMaker)

So, I guess that I'm just missing a way to determine the pivot hole diameter of the replacement jewel. As I understand it my options are:

a) Measure the pivot using my micrometer and risk flattening the pivot, at least the the ones measuring 0.12 mm or less.

b) Get a balance staff pivot straightener, which can only measure pivots in the range of 0.07 mm to 0.15 mm and likely will cost me approx. $300 + shipping + import fees + VAT

c) Get a Seitz jeweled pivot gauge which allows measuring pivots in the range of 0.07 mm to 0.50 mm and, looking at historical prices, will cost me approx. $200 + shipping + import fees + VAT. I guess the price of a Jewelling tool! 

So, any other options for correctly and safely determining the pivot hole diameter of the replacement jewel?

And, I'd really appreciate if someone could confirm (or refute) that the jewel should be pressed in and out by pressing on the jewel's flat side!?

 

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by VWatchie

[Marc]

55 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

And, I'd really appreciate if someone could confirm (or refute) that the jewel should be pressed in and out by pressing on the jewel's flat side!?

You may find the link below useful.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiDj5eRxoXmAhVLi1wKHcl-DCQQFjAFegQIBBAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fihc185.infopop.cc%2Fhelphand%2Fpdf%2Fseitz.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3x-g5ww2TKzpZAU2fLPV0_

[WatchMaker]

Re. your question in italics above about jewel pressing: a jewel will have a proper/natural way it should sit in the movement. A damaged jewel will be pushed out; a new jewel pushed in ... using the appropriate pusher shape. I've attempted to illustrate below:

I've also tracked down a couple of PDFs which might make interesting bed time reading: http://www.nawcc-ch149.com/149files/seitzmanual2.pdf and https://www.mybulova.com/sites/default/files/file/Joseph Bulova School of Watch Making - Unit 9b.pdf. [Edit: @Marc just beat me to it with his helpful reply above but since I was in the process of finishing this reply I've posted the Seitz link anyway!].

I don't have as much experience as other respondents, like @nickelsilver and @jdrichard, so best they respond on your thoughts. The only things I'll throw into the mix are:

1) Jewel hole sizes go up in 0.01mm increments. It would be interesting what other respondents think but I'd also consider a Feintaster gauge which is very delicate and can measure down to (at least) 0.01mm accuracy so you could measure a pivot size to determine the jewel you then need. See some interesting info here: http://watchmakingblog.com/2008/01/29/measuring-tools/. You probably won't get much change from $400 but, unless you have money to burn on getting every tool, this does have the benefit of general purpose measuring.

2) Whilst measuring the outside diameter of your jewel to find a replacement with a micrometer is good there may be times when you want to double check or where the jewel is shattered. I usually do this kind of thing using known precision drill bit diameters. Since the OD of jewels is typically in 0.1mm increments (0.8, 0.9, 1.0 etc.) then you can double check an evacuated jewel hole's size with a reference drill bit. 

Edited November 25, 2019 by WatchMaker

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, WatchMaker said:

Re. your question in italics above about jewel pressing: a jewel will have a proper/natural way it should sit in the movement. A damaged jewel will be pushed out; a new jewel pushed in ... using the appropriate pusher shape. I've attempted to illustrate below:

I've also tracked down a couple of PDFs which might make interesting bed time reading: http://www.nawcc-ch149.com/149files/seitzmanual2.pdf and https://www.mybulova.com/sites/default/files/file/Joseph Bulova School of Watch Making - Unit 9b.pdf. [Edit: @Marc just beat me to it with his helpful reply above but since I was in the process of finishing this reply I've posted the Seitz link anyway!].

I don't have as much experience as other respondents, like @nickelsilver and @jdrichard, so best they respond on your thoughts. The only things I'll throw into the mix are:

1) Jewel hole sizes go up in 0.01mm increments. It would be interesting what other respondents think but I'd also consider a Feintaster gauge which is very delicate and can measure down to (at least) 0.01mm accuracy so you could measure a pivot size to determine the jewel you then need. See some interesting info here: http://watchmakingblog.com/2008/01/29/measuring-tools/. You probably won't get much change from $400 but, unless you have money to burn on getting every tool, this does have the benefit of general purpose measuring.

2) Whilst measuring the outside diameter of your jewel to find a replacement with a micrometer is good there may be times when you want to double check or where the jewel is shattered. I usually do this kind of thing using known precision drill bit diameters. Since the OD of jewels is typically in 0.1mm increments (0.8, 0.9, 1.0 etc.) then you can double check an evacuated jewel hole's size with a reference drill bit. 

Thank you very much @WatchMaker! I'm sure the Seitz manual describes the "Push new jewel IN"/"Push old jewel OUT" which you so admirably illustrate, but now I won't have to spend the time to read through manual to find it. Much appreciated!

1) I don't have a Feintaster but a Bergeon micrometer (like this in pristine condition working perfectly) which I believe is just as good as the Feintaster (and just as expensive), but I wouldn't want to risk flattening the really small pivots (< 0.12 mm) which @nickelsilverwarns us about.

2.) Good tip about the drill bits. I think the Seitz reamers could be used as well as long as there's one in proximity of the diameter of the hole.

[dadistic]

The Bergeon micrometer and the Feintaster, even though they look very similar in form, are very different tools. The Bergeon is a screw type micrometer, whereas the Feintaster is more like an indicator, which means less pressure on the part. The Bergeon is the one that risks deformation of small parts unless you have the worlds lightest touch. 

 

[WatchMaker]

Thanks @dadistic - that's where I was coming from.

Just one last thing @VWatchie from me that I would say is good general practice when using a micrometer on anything very delicate: instead of screwing the micrometer into the item adjust the micrometer to a sensible reference and then check fit; repeat until satisfied.

With jewels for instance we know that they go up in 0.01mm increments. So say you estimate a particular jewel hole is 0.10mm then you would pre-adjust your micrometer to this ... and then check if the pivot slips within the jaws of the micrometer. No? So you adjust to 0.11mm and re-check. Now the pivot slips within the jaws with just enough movement to rotate ... that's the jewel hole size you need. @nickelsilver makes a valid and excellent point but imho you should never be using a micrometer in a such a way you can damage a part. And of course with a jewel hole you want it just bigger than the pivot so you don't need to be squeezing the micrometer onto the pivot ... just keep to an increment.

[VWatchie]

5 hours ago, dadistic said:

The Bergeon micrometer and the Feintaster, even though they look very similar in form, are very different tools. The Bergeon is a screw type micrometer, whereas the Feintaster is more like an indicator, which means less pressure on the part. The Bergeon is the one that risks deformation of small parts unless you have the worlds lightest touch. 

 

So, do you mean to say that the push button as seen being pushed here, is constructed in such a way that it will stop pushing at an "insanely" small amount of resistance? If not, please elaborate on "very different tools". I haven't got any personal experience of the Feintaster, but yes, the pinch of the Bergeon is pretty solid as soon as the resistance is felt in the micrometer screw.

Anyway, I know for sure that the Bergeon (30112) is @nickelsilver's personal favorite and that's why I got it. And, using @WatchMaker's excellent "incremental measuring technique" (which I suppose should work equally well with both types of micrometers, Feintaster and Bergon?) I now feel pretty confident that I should be able to determine the pivot diameters without a Seitz jeweled pivot gauge, even with my, in comparison to the Feintaster I suppose, somewhat "substandard" Bergeon micrometer.

Edited November 25, 2019 by VWatchie
misspelling

[nickelsilver]

The issue with a screw based micrometer is the massive mechanical advantage the screw gives. An indicator type measuring tool has a spring inside that provides the force. This is generally quite light.

But an indicator based tool that is calibrated to read in 0.01mm increments is generally less accurate than a screw based tool. The few Feintasters I messed with were actually pretty good, but I still prefer a screw based measuring tool.

Vwatchie, if you keep your eyes peeled on Ebay you'll find a jewelled gage for a reasonable price. I use the Seitz staightener a lot because it has 0.0025mm increments and I frequently do staffs with 0.06something pivots (they have a supplemental version that covers the smaller sizes). I do mic the pivot as I'm turning in the lathe, and I do see the marks. But I leave a good 0.01mm to take off in the jacot and they disappear.

There are at least two on the bay now for a decent price.


Word of caution- the straitening tools shouldn't go in the ultrasonic. A friend put his in with normal clock/watch solution and it are into the metal and all the jewels fell out!

[jdrichard]

You may find the link below useful.
 
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiDj5eRxoXmAhVLi1wKHcl-DCQQFjAFegQIBBAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fihc185.infopop.cc%2Fhelphand%2Fpdf%2Fseitz.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3x-g5ww2TKzpZAU2fLPV0_

I have the basic Jeweling set and managed to get the high end set with the pivot strengthening tool among other items.


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[VWatchie]

Also found Walsh (located in GB) supplying Seitz jewel holes. They are slightly more expensive than Cousins matching, about 6 %, but I guess could be in option for this or that reason.

Now, I've just realized that jewel holes are, shall we say, somewhat expensive  at about £6/€7/$8 (VAT included) each. So that makes me wonder if jewel holes can be recycled? I think the obvious answer is yes, but I learned a lot just about using a micrometer in this thread, so I don't dare to take anything for granted.

This thread has been very enlightening to me! Thanks!  

[VWatchie]

10 hours ago, jdrichard said:

I have the basic Jeweling set and managed to get the high end set with the pivot strengthening tool among other items.


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That's nice! Congrats! Just don't place it in your US! 

[nickelsilver]

13 hours ago, VWatchie said:

So, do you mean to say that the push button as seen being pushed here, is constructed in such a way that it will stop pushing at an "insanely" small amount of resistance? If not, please elaborate on "very different tools". I haven't got any personal experience of the Feintaster, but yes, the pinch of the Bergeon is pretty solid as soon as the resistance is felt in the micrometer screw.

Anyway, I know for sure that the Bergeon (30112) is @nickelsilver's personal favorite and that's why I got it. And, using @WatchMaker's excellent "incremental measuring technique" (which I suppose should work equally well with both types of micrometers, Feintaster and Bergon?) I now feel pretty confident that I should be able to determine the pivot diameters without a Seitz jeweled pivot gauge, even with my, in comparison to the Feintaster I suppose, somewhat "substandard" Bergeon micrometer.

You can see in that video that the jewel is measuring a hair over 1.09mm on the dial. It may be that it is just slightly out of calibration, but likely it is the inherent problem of dial type measuring tools (indicators); there is a rack and usually a couple of gears and a large hairspring, all of which can induce error. I am pretty certain that jewel measures 1.10  spot on within a couple of microns, and it would be clearer with a screw type micrometer like the Bergeon 30112. The Feintaster is a good tool but it just can't be as accurate as a screw.

 

The spring doesn't provide "insanely" small pressure but it's pretty darn small.

 

Micrometers with non rotating spindles, like the Bergeon are a bit more forgiving than ones that turn as far as marking the piece being measured. You don't want to turn until the ratchet thimble clicks when measuring small stuff- just until you feel contact is made.

[VWatchie]

Thanks @nickelsilver, very interesting and useful info! Yes, I do not "turn until the ratchet thimble clicks", still the pinch is actually harder than I would have expected. Caution and measuring in increments should do the trick! BTW, my Bergeon isn't even a hair off. Measuring my Seitz reamers it is spot on. Being new to this, being able to measure down to the exact hundredth of a millimeter is just mind blowing.

Anyway, as you mention in a previous post, there are a couple of Seitz jewelled pivot gauges up for sale on eBay now. See if I can refrain from bidding on them... Sunday will be a true test of my willpower 

Edited November 26, 2019 by VWatchie
missed typing a word