Watchmaker or what?

[ramrod]

the term is really splitting hairs. although i fully accept the term watchmaker for those who repair watches. i wouldn't call myself that  - more of a tinkerer i guess.

to go further - what do you call a person who assembles watches in a watch factory? are they an assembler, or a watchmaker?

how about a person who assembles cars on an assembly line? they aren't carmakers. the company as a whole is a carmaker. they're assembly line workers.

[rogart63]

As the old dental technician i am. I think that is a good word that describes what they do? Not a dentist but dental technician. I have sometimes wondered over the word watchmaker? I think a better one would be watch technician? 

[fjseal]

If you successfully disassemble a watch, clean, lubricate and re-assemble it,  it runs and keeps good time  for a prolonged period, I think you are entitled to call yourself more than a 'tinkerer.'  After all, by that stage you have obviously learnt enough to achieve something worthwhile, and have demonstrated the diligence and application necessary for the task.

 

[IndianaMatt]

I don't work on watches yet, so I'm not even a watch repairman. I do work on clocks, but I don't make them...yet. I bounce back and forth between the terms "clock smith", "clock repairman", and "horologist". I like using "horologist" because I get the biggest reaction (most people don't know a horologist is) and that opens the door to a great educational opportunity. If someone asks me what I do, I say that I repair and restore old clocks. I told that to a guy once and responded: "oh, so you're a tinkerer". I plan on getting to the point where I can make a clock and a watch...then I will call myself a clockmaker and a watchmaker.

I personally don't mind people calling themselves a clockmaker or a watchmaker, as long as they are capable of making most repairs and executing them to a high level of excellence. If all they do is clean and serve, then I usually wrinkle my nose up if they call themselves a clockmaker or a watchmaker.

Here in the US we have a radio show called A Way With Words, it looks like it airs in the UK too. People call in and ask all kinds of question about words, grammar, and spelling. This sounds like a good question to ask Martha and Grand from A Way With Words. I think an over all history of terms like clockmaker, watchmaker...and terms that end in smith, like silversmith, and blacksmith. I think I will give them a call.

[craynerd]

The word watchmaker describes a master craftsman that can build parts for watches. 

What is curious, is most of you are presuming that one can be a repairer but not a maker, yet have not considered being a maker but not a repairer!

I've now built 2 clocks and part way though building a third, completely from scratch metal bar stock. Therefore, am I clockmaker as I most certainly am a maker of clocks. However, give me a strike or chime to repair or a floating balance and I'd be petrified of taking it apart. Therefore I'm clearly not a clock repairer as I don't have the skill to repair all clocks. Or do you presume that if I have made clocks, given time, I do have the skills if I sat down long enough, that I would be able to fabricate new parts (which I would, it just wouldn't be financially viable or a particular interest to me) 

i appreciate this conversation has revolved around watches which are a far superior skill in making but surely the concept is the same.... That being that it is quite a confusing topic but I do admit, I think they are interchangeable. I do believe I can make clock parts and therefore a clockmaker and am now in the process of making pocket watch parts and therefore a watchmaker. I do believe you need to be making some parts to achieve the watch-making part!! 

 

 

[IndianaMatt]

How about a Watchwright or a Clockwright.

[craynerd]

On 9 April 2016 at 9:01 AM, Alaskamick said:

 

This in no way belittles the skills which we all have but please don't call yourselves watch makers because you never will be.

 

What a terrible comment. You may never be, but that doesn't mean we won't! 

When I was 18, my tutor at university, a professor of pharmacology was a collector of Patek Philippe (££££). I become obsessed with the images and videos of watch manufacture and decided to build a watch. I purchased a Unimat 3, used it to sharpen a pencil on my bedroom floor, realised that I couldn't even attempt a watch so decided to build a clock and work my way up. I purchased a shed load of brass from Ian Cobbs, it arrived, I failed and sold the lathe. When I was 22 I purchased my first house, setup my workshop and purchased a new lathe, retrieved all the brass that was stored at my grandparents, didn't have a clue how to use the lathe and failed. When I was 23/24 I spent my evenings turning engines. I've no interest in steam engines but there is a hell of experienced group out there of people willing to show you how to engineer engines rather than clocks. I spent 2 years building them and learning how to use my tools at the basic level. At 28 I got the material back from my grandparents again and spent a year building my first clock. At 29 I put together a cnc machine and used it with manual tools to build my next clocks. I'm now 32, I've spent the last year stripping watches ready to build one from scratch....... Never say never!! 

:-) rant over. 

[Folkvisor]

On April 9, 2016 at 3:01 AM, Alaskamick said:

If you want to know how to identify a "Watch maker" please read the story of George Daniels and Roger Smith.

George was a watch maker. He spent his whole life teaching himself to make every bit of a watch except for springs and crystals.

 He was a true watchmaker.

When Roger went to him and asked to be apprenticed George sent him away, said he didn't have the time to teach him and said   " come back when you have made a watch "

From memory I think it was about 2 years before he went back to show George the watch he'd made. George looked at it, told him it was no good and said " make another one but this time do it properly"

It took a further five years before he took his second watch to George.

George asked him, who made the dial - Paul " I did "

                                Who made the case - Paul " I did "

and so on until eventually George said you're now a " Watch Maker and you can come and work under me and I'll guide you.

George is now passed on and Paul runs his own workshop on the Isle Of Mann and has a team off young men working for him and he trains them in all aspects of watchmaking.

Paul is the only true watchmaker that I know of.  All the rest are watch repairers, Watch assemblers or if you like watch restorers and can never claim to be " Watch Makers "

This in no way belittles the skills which we all have but please don't call yourselves watch makers because you never will be.

 

Are you speaking of Roger Smith? He took over George Daniels' shop.

Dave

[Folkvisor]

I'm a piano tuner; some would say piano technician. I've rebuilt a number of pianos - almost from scratch. 

I used to think I'd like to actually build a piano from scratch; I even went to a foundry to ask what it would cost to make a cast-iron plate. The answer was altogether too much money - so I never pursued my ambition. 

However, I apprenticed with a master technician for many years and probably got some of the best training in North America, let alone Canada. I'm basically retired now but I've worked with many very fine pianists and had many interesting experiences as a tuner. I think, no matter what one calls oneself, it is those experiences that make whatever you do interesting. 

Anyway, I love looking at a watch or even a photo of a watch and knowing what all those little pieces are and how they work. Even the frustration of things not working properly is interesting.

Dave

[Alaskamick]

Sorry Dave, my brain did an age related left turn after the first part of my post and for some reason I started calling him Paul instead of Roger.

The whole post refers to George Daniels and Roger Smith.

 

3 hours ago, Folkvisor said:

Are you speaking of Roger Smith? He took over George Daniels' shop.

Dave

Thanks a lot for pointing out my error.

[Folkvisor]

3 hours ago, Alaskamick said:

Sorry Dave, my brain did an age related left turn after the first part of my post and for some reason I started calling him Paul instead of Roger.

The whole post refers to George Daniels and Roger Smith.

 

Thanks a lot for pointing out my error.

Sorry if I made it sound a bit 'all-knowing;' I was just wondering if someone else took over the shop as well. Anything's possible...

Dave

[svorkoetter]

On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 7:06 PM, craynerd said:

What a terrible comment. You may never be, but that doesn't mean we won't! 

...

:-) rant over. 

I'm replying, because the site won't let me "Like" this more than once.

I consider myself an amateur watchmaker. I repair watches. I've successfully completed the two complete movement servicings I've undertaken, and made smaller repairs to other movements. I also "make" watches, in the sense of putting together cases, movements, hands, and dials. The dials are often home-made, and the movements sometimes slightly modified.

And when I need my shoes fixed, I take them to my shoemaker, who I'm pretty sure has never made a pair of shoes from scratch. On the other hand, my wife's saddlemaker does actually make (and repair) saddles.

[Alaskamick]

54 minutes ago, svorkoetter said:

I'm replying, because the site won't let me "Like" this more than once.

I consider myself an amateur watchmaker. I repair watches. I've successfully completed the two complete movement servicings I've undertaken, and made smaller repairs to other movements. I also "make" watches, in the sense of putting together cases, movements, hands, and dials. The dials are often home-made, and the movements sometimes slightly modified.

And when I need my shoes fixed, I take them to my shoemaker, who I'm pretty sure has never made a pair of shoes from scratch. On the other hand, my wife's saddlemaker does actually make (and repair) saddles.

Sorry but you are not a Watch Maker. You are a watch repairer which is a world away.

And you don't take your shoes to a shoe maker you go to a Cobbler.

Strangely cobbling is what some who mend watches are really doing but convince themselves that they are watch makers.

[svorkoetter]

16 hours ago, Alaskamick said:

Sorry but you are not a Watch Maker. You are a watch repairer which is a world away.

And you don't take your shoes to a shoe maker you go to a Cobbler.

Strangely cobbling is what some who mend watches are really doing but convince themselves that they are watch makers.

I didn't say I was an amateur "watch maker", I said I was an amateur "watchmaker". The space makes all the difference. And you clearly also didn't read my entire post, since I have done more than just repair watches.

From various dictionaries (emphasis added by me):

• Merriam-Webster: one that makes or repairs watches or clocks.
• American Heritage: one that makes or repairs watches.
• Collins - (Horology) a person who makes or mends watches.
• Random House - a person whose occupation it is to make and repair watches
• Oxford - a person who makes and repairs watches and clocks.
• MacMillan - someone whose job is to make or repair watches

Two thirds of the dictionaries say make "or" repair.

Since you, nor anyone else for that matter, is the arbiter of what an English word means, those of us who repair watches are watchmakers, and those of us who do so for fun and without formal training are amateur watchmakers. But you can choose to use the "and" definition if you want, making all us except you "watchmakers".

Edited April 19, 2016 by svorkoetter

[WillFly]

I'll just say here that I don't think it's worth getting heated up over the term - however it's spelled - as I think we all know what we are and what we can do. And we all probably know what the state of the manufacture and repair of watches is in this country (UK) and many others, so perhaps a little chilling out may be in order...

[Alaskamick]

1 hour ago, WillFly said:

so perhaps a little chilling out may be in order...

WillFly, consider chilling in progress.

Mike

[WillFly]

Good man!

Will

[Mark]

I think this thread has run it's course