Design Watch / Plating Project

[Endeavor]

Thanks for the info and google / YouTube search suggestion   All info is appreciated !

Indeed, HCl in nasty stuff and has to be treated with high respect; ventilation and safety gear. I will try your method soon on a bezel which I polished, but I went through the nickel layer....... If it works well, the Komandirskie case will be next.

 

[ramrod]

You should be receiving your package soon, Roland. I'm anxious to see what you can do with the cases .

[12toneman]

I also should add: the HCl method will work on chrome, but Vostok also uses titanium nitride to give the gold tone to their Komandirskies. 

[Endeavor]

In preparation of plating two Komandirskie watch cases, I consulted my friend for some tips. I'm still not sure whether the cases are nickel-plated or chrome-plated? The base material of the cases seems to be some sort of Copper-alloy (?).

Just in case the information goes lost, and to share with the forum, here is what he said;

ALWAYS chrome over nickel.

To see whether it's chrome of nickel, look at the color. Nickel has a yellow-ish shine, chrome a blue-ish shine. Best is to compare with a test piece with a known surface.

You can not put a nickel layer over a chrome layer; no binding.

Chrome can easily be removed by HCL (Hydrogen Chloride Acid). Nickel or copper won't be effected by HCL. Aluminum or Zamac ( Zamac is an acronym for the Zinc, Aluminum, Magnesium, and Copper alloy) will be (very quickly) effected by HCL. Question is now where are the Komandirskie cases precisely made off ?? Brass would be Copper/zinc (Hmmm...... not so good), Bronse is copper / tin; should be okay......

Nickel dissolves in Nitric acid (Salpetre acid, HNO3). Nitric acid dissolves also most other metals too, so not recommended !

If a chrome layer is damaged, most likely the layers beneath (including base metal) are effected too.

Step 1) Remove chrome layer with HCL, flush/clean thereafter thoroughly with water.

Step 2) Assess damage; filling and/or polishing.

Step 3) Re-plate with Nickel (Remanence of the old nickel layer, provided well bond and smooth, is no problem).

Step 4) Re-chrome.

A chrome layer seems to be more difficult. The fluid needs to be between 55 and 63 deg.C, more current required and a more complex anode construction due to poor "spreading".

Glossy-chrome, to get the best results;

- Before putting the chrome-layer on, polish the layer underneath till mirror-gloss.

- Adding some sucker to the chrome bath will increase the gloss.

- Work at the highest temperature, within the given range.

- Lowest current-density will improve the gloss.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Endeavor

[Watchtime]

A very interesting read again mr. E. What an effort to get the job done. Hats off for you.

Looking forward to the finished watch. Have a great Christmas.

[Endeavor]

@Watchtime Thank you for your nice compliment

I'm not sure whether it is going to be this year, but I'll take pictures of my "attempts". I may finish the case with just nickel. I do have a chrome solution, but that's more industrial chrome and not the glossy-chrome. I could do a silver layer over the nickel, but that wouldn't suite a Komandirskie. The back-covers of the Komandirskie's are fine, so when left untouched, there shouldn't be any risk for allergic reactions ....... even though nickel doesn't effect me anyways. To be continued in due time

 

[szbalogh]

Replated this Vostok bezel with nickel. 

 

[ramrod]

very nicely done!

can you tell how thick the nickel plating is?

[Endeavor]

@szbalogh Very nice and well done ! I like the YT film as well

As far as I'm aware, the nickel plating fluid I have doesn't need heating (I did the design watch without any heating), so we'll see what happens after X-mas / new year. Two watch-cases and a few bezels are on the program.

The big table I usually work on had to be cleared/cleaned for the X-mas decoration ........... the annual take over of my wife and (this year?) no more playing

 

[szbalogh]

3 hours ago, ramrod said:

very nicely done!

can you tell how thick the nickel plating is?

How could i tell that?  But i see that there are hollow edges remained yellow. One can see it on the pictures as well. Maybe i should do it longer or with intensive stirring. 

Just now, Endeavor said:

@szbalogh Very nice and well done ! I like the YT film as well

As far as I'm aware, the nickel plating fluid I have doesn't need heating (I did the design watch without any heating), so we'll see what happens after X-mas / new year. Two watch-cases and a few bezels are on the program.

I dont know what heating is for, but the ingredients are precipitating at RT. Dont wanted to replate the case but now i am so axcited and want to get more experience that i will replate that as well.

[Endeavor]

@ramrod I can see szbalogh point of view regarding thickness of the nickel-plating. The thickness of the layer is, perhaps among others, a function of time, current and current-density. I would assume that the amount of nickel in the solution (or what's left in it) is also of influence. Szbalogh setup is, like mine, a home based experimental setup. Current density, as explained previously, is in my case an unknown factor but can be "observed" when cleaning the object in the soap solution. The object point closest to the anode will have the highest current-density and therefore gets the thickest layer in time. It is therefor advisable to rotate the object and/or have a cathode in the center of the object, but still move the object around to get an, as much as possible,"even" layer. Placing more anodes along the periphery of the bath will improve the situation and is common practice. With a setup like this, chances are high that the layer is not evenly distributed and in the (unknown) microns (µm). If in doubt and to be "safe", increase the time to increase the thickness till a still unknown µm. Gut feeling, admitting poor, and gained experiences are currently the "best" indicators for me

If anybody has any suggestions how to get a (better) handle on the thickness, or how to get any idea/indication of it,  I would love to hear ...... that is to say, all suggestions based upon cheap home solutions

 

 

[Marc]

Is it possible to work out the current density for any given point?

If so then would working calculating the current density for the point furthest from the anode allow you to calculate the plating thickness at that point?

If you could do that then at least you could say what the minimum plating thickness was.

[Endeavor]

@Marc As I once understood, edges and points seem to get / have a (much) higher current densities. Watch cases do have lugs, groves and recesses. I'm sure it is possible to calculate the thickness if one knew the current densities at those points. However, after written my previous remark, one question which spins through my head is "how accurate do I / we need to know?". To me a watch case is not a piece of highly precise machined item, so a few microns more or less......... If one had an idea how thick a layer would be on a wear prone surface and give that "enough", wouldn't that be sufficient? What happens to the current density inside recesses (Faraday cage effect) is even for the professionals a big headache. I know my friend is specialized in odd shaped items and gets consulted by the likes of Royal mints. I do know that even in those cases, it's down to technical know-how, experiences, empiric knowledge and.....do I dear to reveal, gut-feeling based solutions. It would really surprise me if the more exclusive watch-case are evenly plated, including the plating inside the recesses. That would require very sophisticated anode / cathode arrangements. I would assume that they grantee a minimum thickness on flush outside surfaces ....... perhaps I'm wrong?

During the plating of the bracelet of my design watch, I observed the color-change and the speed at which that occurred. I had a fair idea of the current patterns, observed in the soap-bath. I made sure that the areas which showed a poor-current pattern (inside the bracelet) were fully plated. I also moved the cathode position and rotated the bracelet in front of the anode. My idea at the time was that if the poor areas are fully covered, all the other area's are even better covered ......but to be sure, I have no idea of the layer thickness.......

[szbalogh]

5 hours ago, Endeavor said:

 Current density, as explained previously, is in my case an unknown factor but can be "observed" when cleaning the object in the soap solution. The object point closest to the anode will have the highest current-density and therefore gets the thickest layer in time. It is therefor advisable to rotate the object and/or have a cathode in the center of the object, but still move the object around to get an, as much as possible,"even" layer. Placing more anodes along the periphery of the bath will improve the situation and is common practice.

You are right. Now i added multiple electrodes and placed about evenly around the beaker. Also degreased the bezel and gave it a second run (about 10 minutes and stirring) now with two 1.5V batteries connected parallel. Now the hollow edges are also covered. Dont know the thickness but the platineg seems solid. 

Also started stripping chrome from the case. 

[Endeavor]

@szbalogh Looking forward to your next YT "cooking"- episode

Edited December 21, 2016 by Endeavor

[szbalogh]

Just now, Endeavor said:

@szbalogh Looking forward to your next YT "cooking"- episode

I dont know how i could polish out those deep corrosion holes in the case...

[Endeavor]

Perhaps the way I repaired the crack in the copper-alloy bracelet, page 1 of this thread, could be of any use?

Edited December 22, 2016 by Endeavor

[ramrod]

18 hours ago, szbalogh said:

I dont know how i could polish out those deep corrosion holes in the case...

should those holes be filled first, polished and buffed, and then plated?

very interesting read, fellas.

[ramrod]

On 12/21/2016 at 7:03 AM, Endeavor said:

@ramrod

If anybody has any suggestions how to get a (better) handle on the thickness, or how to get any idea/indication of it,  I would love to hear ...... that is to say, all suggestions based upon cheap home solutions

 

 

i wonder how it is done in the industry. they must have a guage of some kind to tell.

[Endeavor]

@ramrod Of course I don't know which problems szbalogh is facing. If possible, I would clean out, fill the holes and polish till flush.....

In the industry with hard-chrome, when cylindrical, they grind down first till below nominal size, then plate till above the nominal size and then grind down till required size +/- tolerances...... which can be in a very tight range. They have very accurate measuring devises and very accurate ($$$$$$$$) machinery. For in other industries .... I have no idea; 3-D lasers? Perhaps these guys know how to calculate the layer thickness versus current / time?? For sure, way above my plastic ice-cream setup .......

BTW; I just serviced your 7-jewels Caravelle watch. Now what to do with the gold-plated case? Another endeavor !!

Edited December 22, 2016 by Endeavor

[ramrod]

good for you, endeavor! it's nice to hear you got an old watch is running again.

here's your chance to gold plate a case, i'd say. that would make for a good write up.

[Endeavor]

It would be nice to get the gold-plating solution ......... $$$. The solution has 24 carat gold in it........ leave the watch-case a few hours in the solution and you have an expensive watch

Still not sure what to do with the Saxony diver watch (missing balance and no suc6 with finding any spares). The Lucerne watch / case is broken I'm afraid However, still hope for the Westclox with the solid metal bracelet   Have to think and let idea's mature .......

Edited December 22, 2016 by Endeavor

[ramrod]

well, i'm glad to have helped with providing you with those items. i'm sure you'll do them justice.

[Endeavor]

Do my best

[Watchtime]

@ endeavor, if you have partnumbers I am happy to look in my stock.....