Going out of mind here with low amplitude on a 7s26 and can't fathom why. ANY suggestions for fault finding would be great. I'm ready to throw in the towel.

[Birbdad]

9 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

No, if you have the pawl lever and wheel off, that's pretty much all you can do. This is quite perplexing and I'm invested in finding a solution.

 

Have you tried running it completely dry, minus braking grease?

I'm honestly starting to think that possibly in the cleaning process, specifically pegging out jewel holes i may have braced it too hard against my work surface and VERY slightly bent the main plate or the train bridge. It's fast becoming the only thing that makes sense. When i was working on a 7s26c i'm trying to quickly get running to replace this one just so i can get this damn watch on my wrist again i realized i was bracing it probably harder than i should against my work surface to get a good angle under my microscope.....i don't think it's enough to bend the mainplate or bridge but it is a possibility.

 

I did find a beat up old 7s26b that's utterly filthy and filled with rusted wheels. After i do the latest suggestions i'm going to try cleaning those parts and swapping everything from this one into them and see if the behavior repeats itself. 

[Birbdad]

Whelp i'm just cooked haha. I had the first watch i ever serviced sitting here in pieces for a bit cuz i had to scavenge something off it. Figured i'd take a watch i know works put in one of those generic mainsprings reservice it and would be a good way to troubleshoot the mainspring. 

 

Getting the same shit amplitude as the other watch with that spring, and now something is off with the escapement of this one. The power train didn't turn any easier on this one. 

I wonder if the oils in my pots have gone bad?! This is crazy...It seems like...both watches are probably fine and something in my process is messing up both of them...A mystery is afoot.

 

Anyways, this sums up how i'm feeling 

Edited August 20, 2024 by Birbdad

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Whelp i'm just cooked haha. I had the first watch i ever serviced sitting here in pieces for a bit cuz i had to scavenge something off it. Figured i'd take a watch i know works put in one of those generic mainsprings reservice it and would be a good way to troubleshoot the mainspring. 

 

Getting the same shit amplitude as the other watch with that spring, and now something is off with the escapement of this one. The power train didn't turn any easier on this one. 

I wonder if the oils in my pots have gone bad?! This is crazy...It seems like...both watches are probably fine and something in my process is messing up both of them...A mystery is afoot.

 

Anyways, this sums up how i'm feeling 

Synthetic oils ?

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Birbdad said:

I wonder if the oils in my pots have gone bad?! This is crazy...It seems like...both watches are probably fine and something in my process is messing up both of them...A mystery is afoot.

Technically you're supposed to change the oil in the oil cups on your bench from time to time. If you're obsessed the way the Swiss recommend is quite a bit. This is also why they put dates on the bottle not upset us but just so were not using super old oil. Then yes depending upon what you're using and what exactly are you using? There are stories of oil going bad although typically that would be organic oils. But I once did see an interesting story of a clock person who ended up with one bad bottle of D5 which affected entire months of clock repair.

[HectorLooi]

13 hours ago, Birbdad said:

I wonder if the oils in my pots have gone bad?! This is crazy...It seems like...both watches are probably fine and something in my process is messing up both of them...A mystery is afoot.

Just out of curiosity, what oil are you using for the third wheel?

[Birbdad]

10 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Synthetic oils ?

Yup, all the good standards. 9010 for fast wheels and balance jewels, hp1300 for slow high torque wheels, 9415 for escapement, grease for rubbing parts and keyless works, 8213 for the barrel walls and 8020 for the mainspring itself, just a little film of it rubbed on from some watch paper.

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Technically you're supposed to change the oil in the oil cups on your bench from time to time. If you're obsessed the way the Swiss recommend is quite a bit. This is also why they put dates on the bottle not upset us but just so were not using super old oil. Then yes depending upon what you're using and what exactly are you using? There are stories of oil going bad although typically that would be organic oils. But I once did see an interesting story of a clock person who ended up with one bad bottle of D5 which affected entire months of clock repair.

Yeah i'm going to replace them after this and i do use synthetic good standard oils but see below for update. FINALLY SOME ANSWERS.

27 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Just out of curiosity, what oil are you using for the third wheel?

See above. Nothing unusual, hp1300 for low speed high torque wheels aka barrel, 3rd wheel and center wheel.

 

Okay big update. Look at this. 

This is the second watch using the generic mainspring i thought might be underpowered and responsible for half my troubles. The amplitude climbed 60 degrees as it settled into the service. This confirms a number of things! FINALLY some answers.
1. The gr2377x mainspring that @mikepilk recommended IS indeed powerful enough for the 7s26 movement. Something is wrong with the escapement which i'm going to investigate now, or maybe there's an eyelash or something in the movement, i don't know but look at that amp. I did notice that when i was lubing the pallet stones it would skip a tooth periodically for some reason, i figured i was just short stroking my manual advancement of the escapement but it appears something weird is going on there. I have many pallet forks and escape wheels and i'm going to reinspect.
2. This is the same mainspring that couldn't get barely 210 out of the other watch. This seems to confirm that indeed SOMETHING is wrong with the other watch. what? I don't know. But it's not my ability to service i don't think now which makes me feel good. This has been in the back of my mind during all this.

[VWatchie]

Maybe I shouldn’t write this post as I haven’t followed the thread.

Anyway…

Low amplitude and high rate after a thorough service I’d make sure I haven’t forgotten to demagnetise. Easily overlooked unless you’ve made demagnetising a habit.

I’ve had zero luck with generic Swiss mainsprings and Seiko/Orient movements. My theory is that the alloys are incompatible.

[Birbdad]

EDIT: New pallet fork in. It looks good! I'm losing about 20 to 25 degrees of amplitude in the dial up position for some reason. Gonna re-oil my balance jewel and see if that solves it.

3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Maybe I shouldn’t write this post as I haven’t followed the thread.

Anyway…

Low amplitude and high rate after a thorough service I’d make sure I haven’t forgotten to demagnetise. Easily overlooked unless you’ve made demagnetising a habit.

I’ve had zero luck with generic Swiss mainsprings and Seiko/Orient movements. My theory is that the alloys are incompatible.

I did demagnetize as a troubleshoot. Made no difference. 

So i had a LOT of problems with my barrel when i first got this mainspring in in and i think i've mostly figured it out. 
1. You can't use the dot or smear method to service the barrels like how i see people work with swiss barrels with those cuts in them. You have to spread a pretty liberal layer of grease over the entire barrel wall in a ring, it takes awhile but that IMMEDIATELY added about 20 degrees of amplitude to my full wind and ended my premature bridle slipping issues. From full wind i went from about 3 full rotations to full unwind to six by just changing how i serviced the barrels. 

2. Switching from 8217 to 8213 which is specifically for brass walled barrels also seems to have helped a good bit. 

3. The 2377x appears to be powerful enough to run the 7s26 movement well. I'm getting about 260 to 265 on full wind. I've seen some online say the 2378x is actually a closer fit. The 2377x seems to be a bit on the low end of "good enough" so the slightly stronger 2378x is probably a better fit but don't quote me on that. I do have one but i'm saving it for my bellmatic project.

Edited August 21, 2024 by Birbdad

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 8/19/2024 at 3:51 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

On 8/19/2024 at 2:41 PM, Birbdad said:

pretty good idea. 

IT's nearly impossible to check end and side shake of some of the wheels while it's put together.

 

One thing i found a little baffling is with the entire power train in minus the escapement the TINIEST puff from my puffer would send the entire train spinning quite easily.

Is that in more than one position ?  its always good to check this way in some crown positions as well. That last comment you made is directing you surely.  

That last comment you made was directing you surely, lol

[Birbdad]

Just now, Neverenoughwatches said:

That last comment you made was directing you surely, lol

Not entirely sure what you mean lol. I will investigate that on the first watch at a later time. 

For now i'm utterly done messing with that thing. I"m going to move on to another project once this is in my seiko monster and it's back on my wrist.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Not entirely sure what you mean lol. I will investigate that on the first watch at a later time. 

For now i'm utterly done messing with that thing. I"m going to move on to another project once this is in my seiko monster and it's back on my wrist.

The free running of the train without the escapement fitted

[Birbdad]

5 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The free running of the train without the escapement fitted

well that's the baffling thing. No matter what mainspring i use, what escapement i use and what balance i use or any combination of spare wheels i use, i cannot get that free running train of wheels over 230 amplitude. that amp drops like a rock to around 200. 

I'm really zeroing in on i must have somehow either VERY slightly bent the mainplate or the train bridge. It's sorta the only options left at this point

[mikepilk]

2 hours ago, Birbdad said:

2. Switching from 2817 to 2813 which is specifically for brass walled barrels also seems to have helped a good bit. 

I think you mean 8213, which is what I use. I put a layer all round the edge 

[Birbdad]

11 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I think you mean 8213, which is what I use. I put a layer all round the edge 

Yes! Thank you, typos. And yeah that seems to be the only thing that works. How thick/thin do you use? After watching a pro with a youtube channel how he does it, i am leaning more towards the thick side. 

[mikepilk]

16 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

 i am leaning more towards the thick side. 

I slap quite a bit on.

[Birbdad]

Well no answers on the old watch but the one i just serviced appears on cursory timing to have a sub 4 second delta in five positions, really good for this movement. It's got about 9 or 10 in crown left, probably a slight heavy spot in the balance wheel. 

So yeah, running like a champ at around 255 amp dial down and 240 dial up. Hoping that goes up overnight. Not sure why the drop in amp dial up, i re-oiled the balance jewel and added a bit more and that brough tit up to what it is, i might try adding a little more to the arbor pivot there but it's nice to confirm that i haven't lost it. 

Edited August 21, 2024 by Birbdad

[Birbdad]

 Just a minor update. I'm gonna dust off this watch again this weekend hopefully and try replacing the mainplate or train bridge with a spare to get to the bottom of this mystery. But I serviced and repaired the hairspring on a 7s26c i'd had around i mentioned, put in that generic mainspring. Got the amplitude up into the 255 to 265 range on it and really focused on correcting the hairspring from a pretty bad state and trying to adjust it as perfectly as possible and get the everything as fine tuned as possible. 

I managed to tie my record and get a six position delta on a 7s26c of only five seconds and in four days it's gained one second of time! I definitely haven't lost it. Something is wrong with the watch i started this thread on.

The 2377x  generic spring for this works and can keep great time but I'd definitely get the next stronger one to get that amplitude up a bit. I'll test that out at a later time.
Either way it feels great to have my fav watch back on my wrist and running phenomenal, and I treated her to a double dome sapphire. 

Edited September 6, 2024 by Birbdad

[tIB]

Nothing to add here in terms of solving your problem, but just wanted to say I'm incredibly impressed by the level of knowledge you folks have. Good luck with it!

[Nucejoe]

On 8/20/2024 at 3:18 AM, Birbdad said:

 i'm going to try cleaning those parts and swapping everything from this one into them and see if the behavior repeats itself. 

 Thats the problem, OP keeps swapping parts and call it fault finding, this leaves one with no idea about where the fault is thus its possible causes. 

 Mark offers a course on fault finding, guess he defines fault finding before he start teaching the subject. I think if you take his course you will have a sound understanding  as to what fault finding is and how to go about finding faults.

No ill intent here, just my thought on whats  wasting one's  invaluable  time.

Rgds.

 

Edited September 6, 2024 by Nucejoe
Typo

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 Thats the problem, OP keeps swapping parts and call it fault finding, this leaves one with no idea about where the fault is thus its possible causes. 

 Mark offers a course on fault finding, guess he defines fault finding before he start teaching the subject. I think if you take his course you will have a sound understanding  as to what fault finding is and how to go about finding faults.

No ill intent here, just my thought on whats  wasting one's  invaluable  time.

Rgds.

 

I am inclined to agree Joe, no offence  to Colin and we all have our different  ways of doing things and that mostly  boils down to our time availability, experience.and skill set. How i go about it and I'm sure you do too Joe, if i discover a fault lays within a component I want to know exactly what that fault is, how it affecting the function group and what I'm going to do about fixing it. I must admit i have lost track of whats happened here

[Nucejoe]

 I guess no matter how reasonable ones approach is it will be never enough,    neverenough.

I am sure OP saves a lot of time and enjoys the knowledge he gains by taking Mark's course. 

Those who done take the courses, do definitely way better, for instance   @VWatchie 's  outstanding improvement can clearly be seen in his posts. 

Rgds

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 I guess no matter how reasonable ones approach is it will be never enough,    neverenough.

I am sure OP saves a lot of time and enjoys the knowledge he gains by taking Mark's course. 

Those who done take the courses, do definitely way better, for instance   @VWatchie 's  outstanding improvement can clearly be seen in his posts. 

Rgds

 

 

Absolutely Joe, considering he had barely used a screwdriver before his journey, Hâken is an excellent watchmaker and has wrote some of the most detailed walk-throughs on this forum.

[VWatchie]

Hey, thanks for your kind words guys! 

Yes, @Mark's fault-finding course is excellent. It gives you a solid idea about how to go about it and many practical hands-on tips. I've said it before and I'll say it again, watchfix.com is in my opinion the best bang for the buck online course. I'm slowly working myself through the chronograph course now and so far I've only finished the chapter about what parts the chronograph complication consists of and how they work and interact. It's a lot more complex than I had imagined. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but Mark makes it crystal clear. It's world-class. No, I'm not in cahoots with Mark in any way!

Another tidbit is Kalle Slaap's "Troubleshooting as a Professional Watchmaker" videos.

[Jon]

On 9/7/2024 at 11:52 AM, VWatchie said:

I'm slowly working myself through the chronograph course now and so far I've only finished the chapter about what parts the chronograph complication consists of and how they work and interact. It's a lot more complex than I had imagined.

Brilliant! Which chrono is it? Hopefully a vintage Landeron or Valjoux with loads of eccentric studs. They really sort the wheat from the chaff and you learn loads about how the chronograph mechanism works and the phenomenal amount of adjustments that can be made to the studs to bring it all into concerto.

I tell my students when we start working on their first chronograph (Valjoux 7733) "Keep in mind, many things have to be correctly adjusted and set in a movement with complications to allow it to work and to it’s optimum, but only one thing needs to be wrong to make it grind to a halt."

It won't be long until your doing walkthroughs of them Haken!

[Birbdad]

On 9/6/2024 at 4:59 PM, Nucejoe said:

 Thats the problem, OP keeps swapping parts and call it fault finding, this leaves one with no idea about where the fault is thus its possible causes. 

 Mark offers a course on fault finding, guess he defines fault finding before he start teaching the subject. I think if you take his course you will have a sound understanding  as to what fault finding is and how to go about finding faults.

No ill intent here, just my thought on whats  wasting one's  invaluable  time.

Rgds.

 

Okay there's only a handful of parts in a power train. I swapped every single one out with a confirmed working replacement to see if there's any change in the behavior of this watch. This seems like pretty basic logical troubleshooting stuff for anything.

There's literally two parts left of the original watch. the train bridge and the mainplate left that are unswapped. Then we're looking at it not even being the same watch. 

I made the thread to see if people had any suggestions. I'm gonna get to the bottom of it and post it here for people to be able to search in the future. 

And yeah i'd like to take a course, never sure which one to take. Honestly most of this thread was other unrelated issues. Actually swapping out a handful of parts did not take very long. I only get a handful of hours to spend on this on the weekends. 

Edited September 9, 2024 by Birbdad