Static vs dynamic poising

[Neverenoughwatches]

Hey all watch people, hope you are all well. Wondering if anyone fancies a chat regarding the above. I understand a little but the saying goes a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous . To begin with the timegrapher is much more useful than it's given credit for. Most of us know what poising is but what do we all know and understand about dynamic poising ?

[RichardHarris123]

I for one don't know about dynamic poising. 

[nickelsilver]

Number one thing to keep in mind with dynamic poising, is it should be done on a fully serviced piece that is running perfectly. It's counterproductive to attempt it on something that's not 100%. That said, it's extremely useful. If I restaff a watch, I rarely even check it on the static poising tool. A danger of the static poising tool is you might detect a poise error, correct it, only to find that you now have positional errors related to- the poise. Since dynamic poise takes into account the hairspring and how it affects the balance, you can get something that's COSC level with dynamic, but the balance seems out of poise on the poising tool.

 

The best writeup I've seen is at the amazing site Vintagewatchstraps (such a funny name). Great info.

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I for one don't know about dynamic poising. 

Its something worth looking into if you're keen about accurate regulation .

[nevenbekriev]

Well, this is big amount of writing...

Statical poising is for the balance wheel and the roller as a assembly. If balance well poised statically,  the movement should have performance within 1min/day for the vertical positions, and if we need beter performance, dynamical poising should be done. Why statical poising does not give perfect results? Well, it is done without the hairspring. Adding the hairspring changes the things... The hairspring has a mass and it affects the poising, especially when not correctly centered. Centered means the imaginable center of the spring, which does't exist, to be in the middle of the hole of the collet. But, as we know, the hairspring is attached to the periphery of the collet, not in the middle. No mater, the spring can be centered as if the missing center of it would be in the center of the collet, but it is true only in static position. When the balance is rotated, the spring gets deformed (shrinked or enlarged), and together with this, the effective center of the spring moves, it shifts from the static position. Thus, the hairspring constantly brings error to the balance poising when balance rotates and thus affects the position errors. The dynamical poising helps to compensate this error from the hairspring by adding or removing material on the rim. The compensation is possible for certain amplitude, not for all amplitudes, but still it gives beter results than only static poising. The dynamical poising can be done by modifying the internal hairspring end too, by making changes to hairspring centering.

[Neverenoughwatches]

27 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Number one thing to keep in mind with dynamic poising, is it should be done on a fully serviced piece that is running perfectly. It's counterproductive to attempt it on something that's not 100%. That said, it's extremely useful. If I restaff a watch, I rarely even check it on the static poising tool. A danger of the static poising tool is you might detect a poise error, correct it, only to find that you now have positional errors related to- the poise. Since dynamic poise takes into account the hairspring and how it affects the balance, you can get something that's COSC level with dynamic, but the balance seems out of poise on the poising tool.

 

The best writeup I've seen is at the amazing site Vintagewatchstraps (such a funny name). Great info.

Thats what i was thinking, that if static poising is worth doing at all considering its not taking into account the balance assembly as a whole.

[tomh207]

Not an expert by any means, the way I see it static poising will show you how well you have restaffed the wheel, not so much how it will work. Dynamic poising though for me is more about how to get the best out of the watch once it’s working to its best mechanical level.

 

Tom

[nickelsilver]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thats what i was thinking, that if static poising is worth doing at all considering its not taking into account the balance assembly as a whole.

It gets you in the ballpark, and in some cases excellent timing.

 

A funny thing, I worked for some years doing work as an "external" for a big old brand who made a lot of really tiny watches. They still wanted pretty tight deltas on these tiny 60-80 year old pieces... so sometimes many hours were spent chasing down the last seconds. On this tiny stuff, often, dynamic poise was a real pain, as it would seem to effectively reverse. It could be hard to detect since already seemingly micro adjustments could throw things the opposite way, but on some pieces it was simply reversed. I've spoken about it with some serious timing experts, who've also seen it, but no explanation can be found. Bottom line was the hairspring collet is disproportionately large, throwing the center of the spring further out, pivots a disproportionately large (even at a whopping 0.06mm), etc.

 

I did a staff for a colleague for a LeCoultre 104 he was working on. This is rectangular movement is about 1mm bigger than the 101, the "smallest watch". It timed suuuuper bad. He begged me to poise it, so I put it on the static tool, got it very close to spot on on that. Dang thing had a 30s delta in 6 positions which is unheard of on these... it was a good bit of luck, but he still thinks I'm some sort of wizard, haha.

Edited January 15 by nickelsilver

[Nucejoe]

https://wilkinsoncoutts.com/are-you-accurate-with-precision/

Percision vs accuracy 

"Ball park"   and  COSC percision.

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

It gets you in the ballpark, and in some cases excellent timing.

 

 

 

Edited January 15 by Nucejoe

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

The dynamical poising can be done by modifying the internal hairspring end too, by making changes to hairspring centering.

I understand that making the hairspring more symmetrical ( symmetrical being something that is impossible) by having the collet and stud pinning opposite each other will have some small improved effect on the poise of the hairspring as it breaths. Something that the overcoil overcomes.

[nevenbekriev]

Have You noticed that no modern COSC certified timepiece has overcoil? They all are with flat springs. There is certain position of the outside end against the internal end, that helps to minimise misspoising effect of hairspring breathing. Also, this certain position of beginning/end is used to compensate lo amplitude frequency error due escapement influence by oposite sign lo amplitude hairspring error (or wice versa). 

Edited January 15 by nevenbekriev

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

It gets you in the ballpark, and in some cases excellent timing.

 

A funny thing, I worked for some years doing work as an "external" for a big old brand who made a lot of really tiny watches. They still wanted pretty tight deltas on these tiny 60-80 year old pieces... so sometimes many hours were spent chasing down the last seconds. On this tiny stuff, often, dynamic poise was a real pain, as it would seem to effectively reverse. It could be hard to detect since already seemingly micro adjustments could throw things the opposite way, but on some pieces it was simply reversed. I've spoken about it with some serious timing experts, who've also seen it, but no explanation can be found. Bottom line was the hairspring collet is disproportionately large, throwing the center of the spring further out, pivots a disproportionately large (even at a whopping 0.06mm), etc.

 

I did a staff for a colleague for a LeCoultre 104 he was working on. This is rectangular movement is about 1mm bigger than the 101, the "smallest watch". It timed suuuuper bad. He begged me to poise it, so I put it on the static tool, got it very close to spot on on that. Dang thing had a 30s delta in 6 positions which is unheard of on these... it was a good bit of luck, but he still thinks I'm some sort of wizard, haha.

Sometimes you just have to polish your nails on your shirt and take the compliment.  So what interests me is how the out of poise balance has less of an effect on the rate as amplitude increases from low to higher . And how the rates increase and decrease proportionately between opposing vertical positions with increasing amplitude. I haven’t tried this yet, but as i understand it as 220° is reached the rates diverge and the poise error is no longer recognised by the timegrapher as the two opposite swing positions the error reaches offset each other and mimic accurate poising of the balance. How that might be useful for ruling out other rate issues ? And how beat error might effect how dynamic poising is performed ?

57 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Have You noticed that no modern COSC certified timepiece has overcoil? They all are with flat springs. There is certain position of the outside end against the internal end, that helps to minimise misspoising effect of hairspring breathing. Also, this certain position of beginning/end is used to compensate lo amplitude frequency error due escapement influence by oposite sign lo amplitude hairspring error (or wice versa). 

Interesting I didn't know that nev, i thought with an overcoil being more superior for even breathing that poise would also be improved.

[JohnR725]

15 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Number one thing to keep in mind with dynamic poising, is it should be done on a fully serviced piece that is running perfectly.

Dynamic poising is not a modern magic fix for things that aren't quite right. I was at a lecture on precision timing and an image was shown for Rolex watch it had minor issues out of poise out of beat bunch a minor things the next image was perfect. How were all the problems fixed the balance staff was changed. At the time it was the head watchmaker of a shop for a chain of jewelry stores authorized Rolex service and the comment made was they change to more balance staffs for timing issues than anything else. So watch basically should be as perfect as it can be for dynamic poising to be successful.

15 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

If balance well poised statically,  the movement should have performance within 1min/day for the vertical positions

I would be so disappointed if I statically poise and had a one minute positional problem. Often times when I'm looking at the balance wheel were rocking back and forth I think of school where the instructor would shake his head and walk away because it's not perfect enough. Then putting it on the timing machine I can get within 15 seconds. Providing and this is the problem of vintage vintage gets played with a lot and you can end up with all sorts of peculiar timing problems which is why I always look at the watch if there's a problem I'll usually look at it statically and get it reasonably close his otherwise I'll be wasting my time with dynamic poising when they're usually that far off. And yes it's really amazing how far off watches can be previous watchmakers are only looked at the watch in one position.

12 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I haven’t tried this yet, but as i understand it as 220° is reached the rates diverge and the poise error is no longer recognised by the timegrapher as the two opposite swing positions the error reaches offset each other and mimic accurate poising of the balance. How that might be useful for ruling out other rate issues ? And how beat error might effect how dynamic poising is performed ?

Yes the magic number. There's an image that shows a really nice of this it also explains why you should dynamic poise of a low amplitude. Although I do know people at dynamic poise at a high amplitude but low would be better providing the watch is functioning properly and you not having issues like with the escapement for instance.

Here's a nice chart that shows the effect of amplitude and positional errors.

 

Dynamic poising as interesting because somewhere out there a individual claims that Greiner invented dynamic poising. Except you can dynamic poise without a timing machine it takes a little bit of time at least from the reference I saw but it can be done timing machine just speeds up the whole thing considerably. Then Greiner when they came out with the timing machines they grasp the problem the watchmaker and a lack of understanding so they produced a really nice manual like this one conveniently PDF that the link below. PDF page 23 covers dynamic poising the rest the manual should be looked at anyway as it covers all sorts of things that you can do with your timing machine for diagnostic purposes

http://www.historictimekeepers.com/documents/Micromat.pdf

Oh poising how the light reading I'm attaching a PDF

12 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Have You noticed that no modern COSC certified timepiece has overcoil? They all are with flat springs.

No I haven't noticed that but can I assume that they don't have regulator pins either? What's interesting in the world of horology is with time a greater understanding of things have occurred including hairspring characteristics that can have all sorts of interesting effects.

Oh thinking of chronometer certified here's an amusing article because a watch that's chronometer certified may not actually look that impressive on a timing machine. That's because the certification procedure does not use a timing machine.

https://www.watchpro.com/robert-loomes-unravels-overcoiled-hairsprings/

But the article was slightly helpful for something that was bothering me an unhelpful because I wanted to see pictures of moderate chronometer certified watches with their flat hairsprings?

Yes look flat hairsprings it's hard to make an over coil With silicon.

https://www.prestigetime.com/blog/silicon-revolution.html

Okay found was looking for but you're right I lost no modern this is from 2005 it's vintage but the indication is it still chronometer certified and it's not entirely flat

https://www.rolex.com/watchmaking/features/movement

 

 

1946-08-HIA-OCR pages 9 to 13 poise Challacombe.pdf

[Neverenoughwatches]

17 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Dynamic poising is not a modern magic fix for things that aren't quite right. I was at a lecture on precision timing and an image was shown for Rolex watch it had minor issues out of poise out of beat bunch a minor things the next image was perfect. How were all the problems fixed the balance staff was changed. At the time it was the head watchmaker of a shop for a chain of jewelry stores authorized Rolex service and the comment made was they change to more balance staffs for timing issues than anything else. So watch basically should be as perfect as it can be for dynamic poising to be successful.

I would be so disappointed if I statically poise and had a one minute positional problem. Often times when I'm looking at the balance wheel were rocking back and forth I think of school where the instructor would shake his head and walk away because it's not perfect enough. Then putting it on the timing machine I can get within 15 seconds. Providing and this is the problem of vintage vintage gets played with a lot and you can end up with all sorts of peculiar timing problems which is why I always look at the watch if there's a problem I'll usually look at it statically and get it reasonably close his otherwise I'll be wasting my time with dynamic poising when they're usually that far off. And yes it's really amazing how far off watches can be previous watchmakers are only looked at the watch in one position.

Yes the magic number. There's an image that shows a really nice of this it also explains why you should dynamic poise of a low amplitude. Although I do know people at dynamic poise at a high amplitude but low would be better providing the watch is functioning properly and you not having issues like with the escapement for instance.

Here's a nice chart that shows the effect of amplitude and positional errors.

 

Dynamic poising as interesting because somewhere out there a individual claims that Greiner invented dynamic poising. Except you can dynamic poise without a timing machine it takes a little bit of time at least from the reference I saw but it can be done timing machine just speeds up the whole thing considerably. Then Greiner when they came out with the timing machines they grasp the problem the watchmaker and a lack of understanding so they produced a really nice manual like this one conveniently PDF that the link below. PDF page 23 covers dynamic poising the rest the manual should be looked at anyway as it covers all sorts of things that you can do with your timing machine for diagnostic purposes

http://www.historictimekeepers.com/documents/Micromat.pdf

Oh poising how the light reading I'm attaching a PDF

No I haven't noticed that but can I assume that they don't have regulator pins either? What's interesting in the world of horology is with time a greater understanding of things have occurred including hairspring characteristics that can have all sorts of interesting effects.

Oh thinking of chronometer certified here's an amusing article because a watch that's chronometer certified may not actually look that impressive on a timing machine. That's because the certification procedure does not use a timing machine.

https://www.watchpro.com/robert-loomes-unravels-overcoiled-hairsprings/

But the article was slightly helpful for something that was bothering me an unhelpful because I wanted to see pictures of moderate chronometer certified watches with their flat hairsprings?

Yes look flat hairsprings it's hard to make an over coil With silicon.

https://www.prestigetime.com/blog/silicon-revolution.html

Okay found was looking for but you're right I lost no modern this is from 2005 it's vintage but the indication is it still chronometer certified and it's not entirely flat

https://www.rolex.com/watchmaking/features/movement

 

 

1946-08-HIA-OCR pages 9 to 13 poise Challacombe.pdf 1.52 MB · 0 downloads

Thanks John, i understand that dynamic poising is a fine tuning operation and not necessary unless you are hung up on accurate watch regulation. I was wondering about the 220° of amplitude in vertical positions could be used to rule out looking for the effects of poise error when regulating. If you regulate as close as possible to 220 ° then inaccurate timing rates that remain are due to other things like hairspring issues. Just makes sense to diagnose at 220 ° to at least rule out one thing ( poise error )

[nickelsilver]

Watches with flat hairsprings that meet COSC, at least ETA, often have the "dog leg" treated by laser which changes its behavior, beneficially. Not to say a non-treated spring can't do it- I've seen 7750s that are 35 years old (pre-ETA) that would pass easily, haha. There is a trend on some new calibers to do away with the regulator, which does eliminate a point of error (also a point of adjustment). Also, from around the 60s more and more watches started using collets developed by Greiner, called- Greiner collets. I believe ETA has their own proprietary version now, but these are poised collets, very carefully designed, and do help the rating.

 

On the 220 thing, it's worth trying out. You'll see that even on a very well rated watch even at 220 there are small differences in timing, simply because there's more going on than just the poise of the balance affecting timing. But worth noting that marine chronometers would be adjusted to run around 220 degrees, and they run in one position (flat), in a gimbal, so they stay flat. Just belt and suspenders.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks John, i understand that dynamic poising is a fine tuning operation and not necessary unless you are hung up on accurate watch regulation. I was wondering about the 220° of amplitude in vertical positions could be used to rule out looking for the effects of poise error when regulating. If you regulate as close as possible to 220 ° then inaccurate timing rates that remain are due to other things like hairspring issues. Just makes sense to diagnose at 220 ° to at least rule out one thing ( poise error )

Another quick example before you  answer John or to put it another way. How many enthusiasts poise a balance ? Not many i imagine. Relative beginners i am willing to bet, none at all. So if regulation and rate issues are diagnosed and corrected at 220° beginners are not chasing their tail looking for something that is poise related. When timing is good at 220 ° then rate issues above and below 220° would likely BE poise related. That could be verified by noticing the increase/ decrease rate cross over point of 220 ° between 2 opposite verticals.

50 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Watches with flat hairsprings that meet COSC, at least ETA, often have the "dog leg" treated by laser which changes its behavior.

Now thats really interesting,  you mean just that small section of interchange as the terminal curve starts ? I mentioned that ages ago and asked the question # can the active point also come from there as well from the pins or at least be effect by it # i dont think i received an answer so i assumed I'd asked something stupid . I wonder if that laser treatment stiffens it so the active point is more concentrated at the reg pins ?

50 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

the 220 thing, it's worth trying out. You'll see that even on a very well rated watch even at 220 there are small differences in timing, simply because there's more going on than just the poise of the balance affecting timing. But worth noting that marine chronometers would be adjusted to run around 220 degrees, and they run in one position (flat), in a gimbal, so they stay flat. Just belt and suspenders.

Appreciate that reply nickelsilver, it sort of bugged me why i haven't seen it recommended.  I know its not a foolproof idea but it can take a chunk of timing error away so you can focus on something else that needs looking at. I haven't figured out why 220° i would have expected some other less subtle angle like  180 or 270  actually 225  or 135 seem very obvious cept 135 would emphasise more escapement interference.  yeah that last bit was maybe too much information if had to be honest

Edited January 16 by Neverenoughwatches

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

But worth noting that marine chronometers would be adjusted to run around 220 degrees, and they run in one position (flat), in a gimbal, so they stay flat.

I had never heard about a gimbal before so I found this very easy-to-understand description:

"PROTECTIVE BOX WITH GIMBAL – Holds the chronometer level with the horizon to prevent position changes that can alter its ability to keep precise time."

[Neverenoughwatches]

17 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I had never heard about a gimbal before so I found this very easy-to-understand description:

"PROTECTIVE BOX WITH GIMBAL – Holds the chronometer level with the horizon to prevent position changes that can alter its ability to keep precise time."

Cool watchie but enough about gimbal, i want to know what you think about poising and please dont mention suspenders that image has already ruined my morning routine.

[VWatchie]

12 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

please dont mention suspenders that image has already ruined my morning routine.

Well, when getting into watch repair you (and your watches) better get dressed for the occasion.

[rehajm]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I wonder if that laser treatment stiffens it so the active point is more concentrated at the reg pins

Sometimes visually some springs look stiffened where that ‘dog leg’ begins

[VWatchie]

50 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

i want to know what you think about poising

Well since you insist! For now, I've made it very simple. If there are unacceptable rate differences in the various vertical positions and I have ruled out all other sources of errors that I can think of I do a static poising and if that decreases the delta enough I consider it done. After that, I wear the watch (or put it on my Cyclomat) for a few days and then regulate it accordingly. For a high-quality Swiss movement that will usually result in a watch that on average is less than five seconds fast per day, which I consider near a miracle the more I learn about this. 

Speaking about precision and just for comparison.

Imagine that you are asked to measure a distance of 10 meters, but when you have done it, it turns out that you have measured a distance of 10 meters and 0.35 millimetres. Would anyone think you did a bad job?

Consider then that this corresponds to a watch that goes 3 seconds too fast per day, and yet some people don't think that's good enough.

Edited January 16 by VWatchie

[rehajm]

30 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Consider then that this corresponds to a watch that goes 3 seconds too fast per day, and yet some people don't think that's good enough

The the pros here and elsewhere lecture to not become a slave to the tg so I don’t. ( Of course I also paid for a service from a reputable shop and was told the watch ‘passed the time test’ but it was well out of beat when I checked it- you can’t move a moveable stud for pete’s sake?)

For me the guiding principles are what it will do on the wrist and how will it be worn? The old stuff doesn’t usually become everyday wear, so in beat, regulated, good amplitude, flat lines without a crazy delta is usually okay by me but YMMV. The starting condition matters, too I suppose. Sometimes when it is obvious a movement has seen attention from someone with skills I do invest a few hours with pad and pen and the washer kit or a rub with a file on a balance screw. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

54 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Well, when getting into watch repair you (and your watches) better get dressed for the occasion.

We're kind of getting into unnecessary inappropriate posting territory now the dragon fighting forum group is yet to be created. Is there an ebay shop that specialises in this attire ? Just curious honestly 

[rehajm]

ugh….can…not…unsee…

[VWatchie]

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Is there an ebay shop that specialises in this attire ? Just curious honestly

I have no idea, I just Googled "belt and suspenders" inspired by Nickelsilver's post. As English isn't my native language I sometimes struggle with words and idioms that I realize must be common to English-speaking people.