Static vs dynamic poising

[Neverenoughwatches]

48 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Well since you insist! For now, I've made it very simple. If there are unacceptable rate differences in the various vertical positions and I have ruled out all other sources of errors that I can think of I do a static poising and if that decreases the delta enough I consider it done. After that, I wear the watch (or put it on my Cyclomat) for a few days and then regulate it accordingly. For a high-quality Swiss movement that will usually result in a watch that on average is less than five seconds fast per day, which I consider near a miracle the more I learn about this. 

Speaking about precision and just for comparison.

Imagine that you are asked to measure a distance of 10 meters, but when you have done it, it turns out that you have measured a distance of 10 meters and 0.35 millimetres. Would anyone think you did a bad job?

Consider then that this corresponds to a watch that goes 3 seconds too fast per day, and yet some people don't think that's good enough.

Some folk can get really caught up on  accuracy same as amplitude. 2 minutes a week still sounds ok. I must try wearing my 70s sekonda every day for a month winding it each morning to see what time it has lost or gained.

[VWatchie]

6 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Some folk can get really caught up on  accuracy same as amplitude.

I've caught up on both but I have decided to relax about it. If you become too obsessed with something and you don't reach the results you're trying to, you risk getting fed up and giving up altogether. I have disciplined myself to celebrate the small victories and as time goes by those small victories sometimes become great victories, but these days I don't expect it or demand it.

Edited January 16 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I have no idea, I just Googled "belt and suspenders" inspired by Nickelsilver's post. As English isn't my native language I sometimes struggle with words and idioms that I realize must be common to English-speaking people.

Haha i dont know where nickelsilver aquired it , but in the UK the term is " belt and braces " 

2 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I've caught up on both but I have decided to relax about it. If you become too obsessed with something and you don't reach the results you're trying to, you risk getting fed up and giving up altogether. I have disciplined myself to celebrate the small victories and as time goes by those small victories sometimes become great victories, but these days I don't expect it or demand it.

Perfect attitude towards a difficult problem.  The post was mainly inspired by the 220° disappearing poise error magic trick.

[praezis]

Quote

 ...it sort of bugged me why i haven't seen it recommended.  I know its not a foolproof idea but it can take a chunk of timing error away so you can focus on something else that needs looking at. I haven't figured out why 220° i would have expected some other less subtle angle like  180 or 270  actually 225  or 135 seem very obvious cept 135 would emphasise more escapement interference. 

No need to be recommended: traditional amplitude numbers are 270° flat and resulting 220-240° vertical. You see, these are deliberately chosen numbers.

If you don't like 220: choose 402 degrees, here is another zero point of the graph

Frank

 

 

Edited January 16 by praezis

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 minutes ago, praezis said:

No need to be recommended: traditional amplitude numbers are 270° flat and resulting 220-240° vertical. You see, these are deliberately chosen numbers.

If you don't like 220: choose 402 degrees, here is another zero point of the graph

Frank

 

 

Ah okay i didn't realise that. I feel attaining 402°  might just have caused a different problem.   thanks Frank 

[JohnR725]

22 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

How many enthusiasts poise a balance

Maybe a better question would be how many watch people we will expand that to anybody who touches the inside of the watch actually poise is the balance wheel correctly? We regularly see Rolex watches that have poising issues because people were playing with the timing screws and never bothered to look at the watch in any other position other than flat.

In case you think perhaps I was joking about one position timekeeping we used to send watches out to shop when we were shortstaffed and then we gave up on the individual. One day when the person came in I cautiously asked well basically I wanted to know if he actually knew what a timing machine was. He reassured me that he had one of the Chinese machines and I also asked at the same time more or less of we noticed oil on the pallet fork pivots. Apparently somebody told him that something he should do I didn't bother to inquire if he knew that his timing machine microphone rotated because we knew that he never did. One position timekeeping only who cares if it's a Rolex

of course he was terminated because my boss gets obsessed with the nifty automatic microphone and six position timekeeping at all watches should keep perfect time in six positions etc. etc. Although I get annoyed because I think he forgets that pocket watches for instance run over 24 hours and maybe they'd look spectacular on the timing machine but are they going to look spectacular tomorrow?

Oh and I was thinking about you today so I got you some images. This is an incoming watch I doubt it was done by a watch enthusiast I suspect it was done by somebody claiming that they repair watches. I looked at it I did take the balance out and fortunately there's a whole bunch of other things in front of it to do I seem to be backlogged probably for the next century right now

When the watch came in I noticed on the paperwork there was a reference to something wrong with the balance arms. So we have a more or less straight down image where maybe there's something wrong with the balance arms I wonder if this watch is poised for instance?

I was really curious about what it would look on the timing machine but it's running so poorly at least right now that I can't even tell.

Then we can see in a close-up it does seem to be a little bit of a discrepancy with the lining up of the arm with the rest of the balance wheel

The other side was even more interesting yes you thought this was interesting not compared to the other side we get a bonus amusement. So as we could see carrying on the theme the arms do not appear to be where there supposed to be and they don't even appear to be symmetrical. Plus the bonus regulator pins and know the hairspring doesn't even appear to be touching any of them right now

I doubt this was done by the owner of the watch so was done by exactly? That's why was curious if it would run well enough as to whether it keep time at least dial down the consequences of one position timekeeping. Plus the consequences of who repairs the watch and they're not always hobbyists that are the problem unfortunately just people that don't really have the proper skill sets and knowledge even if they claim that's what they do for a living etc. etc.

Back to your original question of how many enthusiast poise their balance wheel? You find a lot of the hobbyist don't like to change balance staffs that limits how many people were probably play with their balance wheel. Another question to ask is just how many hobbyist or enthusiasts actually exist in the world versus the quality of watches. Versus the quantity of so-called professional watchmaker's.

 

22 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

often have the "dog leg" treated by laser

I know I've seen it somewhere it might've even roughly explained why but the problem of accumulation of too much documentation and trying to remember all of the obscure things becomes a problem.

20 hours ago, VWatchie said:

As English isn't my native language I sometimes struggle with words and idioms that I realize must be common to English-speaking people.

First off English is such a peculiar language. I'm guessing it came about before the people who generated standards and specifications for things? Kind of joking about that out of the way because those people who perceive there in a country that speaks English should go to another country that also perceives it speaks English and then discover that they're not exactly on the same page of things. For those people who never left their country or never watched television from another country or it sometimes comes as quite a surprise of English isn't always universal and doesn't always have the exact same meaning for everything.

Then for instance the shop I work in the owner's wife came from Iran although she likes to tell people occasionally she is Persian because I guess it sounds better. So yes we run into that quiet up yet of things that we say that lead to confusion. Then unfortunately I can't remember she was doing a conference meeting with a group of people she works with and somebody said something and she responded to it and everybody was bewildered for exactly what you're saying it was something that everyone in the group knew exactly what the person said but somebody that didn't grasp that particular version of English would be very bewildered by what was said and know I can't really remember what it was. So yes languages can become quite interesting and in the case of horology the definition of things have changed with time. To basically for horology location and time can change the meaning of quite a few things.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

of course he was terminated because my boss gets obsessed with the nifty automatic microphone and six position timekeeping at all watches should keep perfect time in six positions etc. etc.

Wow your boss was a bit harsh with that decision, releasing him from his employment would have been more than adequate

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Maybe a better question would be how many watch people we will expand that to anybody who touches the inside of the watch actually poise is the balance wheel correctly? We regularly see Rolex watches that have poising issues because people were playing with the timing screws and never bothered to look at the watch in any other position other than flat.

In case you think perhaps I was joking about one position timekeeping we used to send watches out to shop when we were shortstaffed and then we gave up on the individual. One day when the person came in I cautiously asked well basically I wanted to know if he actually knew what a timing machine was. He reassured me that he had one of the Chinese machines and I also asked at the same time more or less of we noticed oil on the pallet fork pivots. Apparently somebody told him that something he should do I didn't bother to inquire if he knew that his timing machine microphone rotated because we knew that he never did. One position timekeeping only who cares if it's a Rolex

of course he was terminated because my boss gets obsessed with the nifty automatic microphone and six position timekeeping at all watches should keep perfect time in six positions etc. etc. Although I get annoyed because I think he forgets that pocket watches for instance run over 24 hours and maybe they'd look spectacular on the timing machine but are they going to look spectacular tomorrow?

Oh and I was thinking about you today so I got you some images. This is an incoming watch I doubt it was done by a watch enthusiast I suspect it was done by somebody claiming that they repair watches. I looked at it I did take the balance out and fortunately there's a whole bunch of other things in front of it to do I seem to be backlogged probably for the next century right now

When the watch came in I noticed on the paperwork there was a reference to something wrong with the balance arms. So we have a more or less straight down image where maybe there's something wrong with the balance arms I wonder if this watch is poised for instance?

I was really curious about what it would look on the timing machine but it's running so poorly at least right now that I can't even tell.

Then we can see in a close-up it does seem to be a little bit of a discrepancy with the lining up of the arm with the rest of the balance wheel

The other side was even more interesting yes you thought this was interesting not compared to the other side we get a bonus amusement. So as we could see carrying on the theme the arms do not appear to be where there supposed to be and they don't even appear to be symmetrical. Plus the bonus regulator pins and know the hairspring doesn't even appear to be touching any of them right now

I doubt this was done by the owner of the watch so was done by exactly? That's why was curious if it would run well enough as to whether it keep time at least dial down the consequences of one position timekeeping. Plus the consequences of who repairs the watch and they're not always hobbyists that are the problem unfortunately just people that don't really have the proper skill sets and knowledge even if they claim that's what they do for a living etc. etc.

Back to your original question of how many enthusiast poise their balance wheel? You find a lot of the hobbyist don't like to change balance staffs that limits how many people were probably play with their balance wheel. Another question to ask is just how many hobbyist or enthusiasts actually exist in the world versus the quality of watches. Versus the quantity of so-called professional watchmaker's.

 

I know I've seen it somewhere it might've even roughly explained why but the problem of accumulation of too much documentation and trying to remember all of the obscure things becomes a problem.

First off English is such a peculiar language. I'm guessing it came about before the people who generated standards and specifications for things? Kind of joking about that out of the way because those people who perceive there in a country that speaks English should go to another country that also perceives it speaks English and then discover that they're not exactly on the same page of things. For those people who never left their country or never watched television from another country or it sometimes comes as quite a surprise of English isn't always universal and doesn't always have the exact same meaning for everything.

Then for instance the shop I work in the owner's wife came from Iran although she likes to tell people occasionally she is Persian because I guess it sounds better. So yes we run into that quiet up yet of things that we say that lead to confusion. Then unfortunately I can't remember she was doing a conference meeting with a group of people she works with and somebody said something and she responded to it and everybody was bewildered for exactly what you're saying it was something that everyone in the group knew exactly what the person said but somebody that didn't grasp that particular version of English would be very bewildered by what was said and know I can't really remember what it was. So yes languages can become quite interesting and in the case of horology the definition of things have changed with time. To basically for horology location and time can change the meaning of quite a few things.

 

You must really enjoy it , all these well maintained looked after watches that come in for you to service, it must make work such a breeze . I dont think you'll be getting terminated anytime soon, but just in case i would suggest making your own coffee at work.

[JohnR725]

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Wow your boss was a bit harsh with that decision, releasing him from his employment would have been more than adequate

Technically I suppose it's not exactly the correct wording. When we were shortstaffed I have no idea how he was found his shop existed a clock repair shop. So he would come and pick up work taken away bring it back. Of course they would go on the timing machine the nifty incredibly expensive witschi machine at times everything and six positions. So termination of giving him watches occurred at some point in time because were spending too much time regulating the watch which should've been regulated in the first place. So technically he was never an employee so that means he Be fired.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

13 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Technically I suppose it's not exactly the correct wording. When we were shortstaffed I have no idea how he was found his shop existed a clock repair shop. So he would come and pick up work taken away bring it back. Of course they would go on the timing machine the nifty incredibly expensive witschi machine at times everything and six positions. So termination of giving him watches occurred at some point in time because were spending too much time regulating the watch which should've been regulated in the first place. So technically he was never an employee so that means he Be fired.

 

In the UK that kind of employment is known as sub contracted ( contracted out work ) . So technically he would be a sub contractor. We use it a lot here for many construction trades and became popular in the 80s. Useful for seasonal or unreliable work periods throughout the year, workers can be hired and fired at will with no legal obligations to them. Employers can also hire or a zero hours contract, this means employees can be given anywhere from zero to 80 hours a week. Shocking what some employers get away with but it is changing slowly.

[Waggy]

Sorry, late to the party, I guess it's a little like balancing a tyre. When something rotates a centripetal acceleration (acceleration towards the center of the spinning thing) is created which causes a centrifugal force (thanks to Newton, every force has an equal and opposite reaction). If you balance statically, you omit to take into account the centrifugal forces and therefore cannot account for them when trying to balance your new tyre, or balance in this case.

So you can balance something perfectly statically, but then it will shake itself to death once it starts to rotate.

[nickelsilver]

When I was in school (in the U.S.) I worked evenings for a "trade shop", this is a workshop that does work for other watchmakers or jewelry stores. It was a one-man shop, plus me. His prices were like 21 bucks for a mens manual wind, 23 for an automatic, and I think a dollar more if there was date. Ladies watches were like 18 dollars. And I got half of that . But I could do 3-4 watches in an evening, 3 nights a week, say 10pcs/week, that was like 400 bucks extra a month which really made a difference 25 years ago!

 

Sounds like the work was similar to John's outside guy. His method was: dial and hands off, date ring off. Disassemble far enough to get the barrel out, open barrel (spring stayed in). In the cleaning machine it goes. After, balance comes out with its cock. Into cleaning machine #2, which had a final bath that was supposed to lubricate the whole watch. Back together it goes, hit the accessible jewels with a little oil just to be sure (haha), on the Vibrograf dial down long enough to get a fairly straight line, dial and hands on, back in the case. We would clean the case.

 

I deviated from his method though. I would disassemble the balance jewels, whether shock (easy) or non-shock (entails removing balance from cock, two tiny screws, usually one tiny screw to get the cap jewel off the plate). I would also remove the cannon pinion, and the fork. I did leave the spring in the barrel, but would at least oil it. In several cases I was able to detect blockages in the train post-cleaning since I would check the train freedom as the fork was out. And I knew at least the balance jewels were clean and oiled correctly. I don't think I had any "comebacks", maybe one? Which I pointed out to him when he finally noticed how far I was digging into the pieces- he was furious! I told him I would continue that way as it saved me time in the end- he said ok, but any lost parts would come out of my pay. Hahaha.

 

I do really appreciate the time I spent there though, as I learned a lot about a lot of different calibers in a short time. And learned what not to do too! He also figured out I was good at replacing staffs, so I got all of those, which was an extra 10 bucks, whoohoo!

 

The funniest thing of all - he insisted that we wire-brush the backside of every dial. No exceptions.

[rehajm]

10 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

The funniest thing of all - he insisted that we wire-brush the backside of every dial. No exceptions.

This type of obsession with destructive oddities seems to be making a comeback in many trades in my part of the US. Plumbing, masonry, housekeeping, gardening…

It’s strange

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Sorry, late to the party, I guess it's a little like balancing a tyre. When something rotates a centripetal acceleration (acceleration towards the center of the spinning thing) is created which causes a centrifugal force (thanks to Newton, every force has an equal and opposite reaction). If you balance statically, you omit to take into account the centrifugal forces and therefore cannot account for them when trying to balance your new tyre, or balance in this case.

So you can balance something perfectly statically, but then it will shake itself to death once it starts to rotate.

 

3 minutes ago, rehajm said:

This type of obsession with destructive oddities seems to be making a comeback in many trades in my part of the US. Plumbing, masonry, housekeeping, gardening…

It’s strange

Do you think that some folk get an idea into their heads or they hear something from someone with supposed knowing or a general rumour going around that something should be done a certain way.  BUT they dont actually decide for themselves if its right or wrong or what the consequences might be. " oh it must be right because so-and-so does it this way " or " well its always been done like this " .  The biggest and most dangerous example of this is the demonising of foods that have high fat content in the 70s ( Lets supply ultra processed foods instead, fricking idiots ) 50 years on and most folk still think the same way. " Fat is bad, you shouldn't eat it " .  Really !!!.  

[Ronp]

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