Rolex 3135 service

[Knebo]

Hello all and merry Christmas (in advance)!

I just finished a service on a Rolex 3135 in a lovely Datejust 16220.

First, here are some overview pictures of the movement:

 

The watch was in overall good condition, but it was running a bit fast and inconsistent (across positions) and amplitude did not reach 250 even fully wound and dial up.

Upon disassembly, I did notice some a bit of dirt and some jewels/pivots had run almost dry.

The barrels shocked me again (similar to the Rolex 2035 that I recently serviced):

 

Thanks to @JohnR725, I had access to detailed oiling charts and service training guide: https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/3626-rolex-3135-beat-error-adjustment/?do=findComment&comment=234180

After some good pre- and final cleaning, I assembled exactly as prescribed by the Rolex training guide that I followed the service guide in detail.

For lubrication, I followed the Rolex oil chart, also posted in the link above. One particular issue is the Rolex lubricant "MR4". It seems to be somewhere between a very thick oil (like HP 1300) and a grease (like 9504). I used either HP 1300 or 9504 as a replacement and depending on the particular locations. My final "interpretation" of the oiling (with Moebious oils) is as in the pictures below.

 

 

Regarding the pallet fork, the Rolex training guide seems to suggest a rather large quantity of 9415.  Consequently, I put more than I usually would (but still less than the suggested amount by Rolex). See pictures below. What are your thoughts? 

 

For the automatic module, as show in the Rolex oiling chart, I treaded the reversers with Epliame and was VERY light on the lubrication of the "internal pivot" (see screenshot). As prescribed, I did not oil the internal ratchet/click mechanism of the reversers.

 

Case:

The previous watchmaker left me a present under the bezel. I noticed that it was not sitting perfectly even on the case. He (or she) must have removed the bezel in a way that damaged it a bit. I filed the damaged metal away with a diamond micro file.

 

Bezel back on with my trusty Robur (with 3D printed adaptors for "standard" M4 dies).

 

 

The dial and hands also got a bit of cleaning :

Before:

After:

 

Casing: 

1. align the case clamps on the movement with the matching groves in the case. That's how that looks. Turn everything around and slide the movement into position. Insert the stem.

Done.

 

At full wind/dial up. Vertical positions are running a bit faster (+8-10 seconds). I may look into regulating that further. I'll eventually post more results.

To conclude, my usual "artwork":

 

 

 

Merry Christmas to everyone!!!

 

 

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, Knebo said:

See pictures below. What are your thoughts?

When I was in school basically the Rolex recommendation is what we had. Small blob on the impulse plane of the exit jewel and then you move the pallet fork back and forth so one third of the teeth go by another small blob another third and then one more. But at the time I was taught we were using 9010 on the escapement now of course it's 9415. The catch the 9415 is in some situations if you get too much you will lose amplitude which is why Swatch group goes to the insane lengths of an electron microscope and putting extremely tiny quantities on the stone letting it run etc. etc. I'm joking about how obsessed they are on the other hand they usually recommend replacing the escape wheel and the pallet fork because there is another lubrication which is applied at the factory that we can't do. I'm attaching the Swatch group recommendation for lubrication

if you are really concerned about over oiling I would do the method like Rolex or I just suggested let it run for a while take the pallet fork out rinse it off and put it back in again and you should be fine. But your amplitudes look fine anyway so I just wouldn't worry about it.

Often find on the group of people sometimes go to minimalistic I think in a recent discussions somebody said they put one drop and somehow expect that the magically spread all around the escape wheel and conveniently I just looked the other way and ignore the whole thing because that's not enough lubrication.

 

 

 

 

8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousins.pdf

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

When I was in school basically the Rolex recommendation is what we had. Small blob on the impulse plane of the exit jewel and then you move the pallet fork back and forth so one third of the teeth go by another small blob another third and then one more. But at the time I was taught we were using 9010 on the escapement now of course it's 9415. The catch the 9415 is in some situations if you get too much you will lose amplitude which is why Swatch group goes to the insane lengths of an electron microscope and putting extremely tiny quantities on the stone letting it run etc. etc. I'm joking about how obsessed they are on the other hand they usually recommend replacing the escape wheel and the pallet fork because there is another lubrication which is applied at the factory that we can't do. I'm attaching the Swatch group recommendation for lubrication

if you are really concerned about over oiling I would do the method like Rolex or I just suggested let it run for a while take the pallet fork out rinse it off and put it back in again and you should be fine. But your amplitudes look fine anyway so I just wouldn't worry about it.

Often find on the group of people sometimes go to minimalistic I think in a recent discussions somebody said they put one drop and somehow expect that the magically spread all around the escape wheel and conveniently I just looked the other way and ignore the whole thing because that's not enough lubrication.

 

 

 

 

8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousins.pdf 1.28 MB · 3 downloads

Thanks for responding!

Funny you say "if you are really concerned about over oiling"... While I really wasn't concerned by it, I had this random/nagging feeling that I may have forgotten to lubricate the mainplate jewel for the mainspring barrel. Conveniently, it's possible to take out the barrel by only removing the automatic works, ratchet wheel and barrel bridge. The movement can even stay in the case. So I did that and, well, found that there was oil. So I didn't forget. However, I noticed that the upper jewel (in the bridge) was barely lubricated. Funny how my mind led me to that issue..

Anyway, so I lubricated the bridge jewel properly now and... amplitude is now through the roof! When I took it off my wrist after a few hours of wearing (and it was fully wound when I put it on), the timegrapher went up to 330°. Now I'm actually a bit concerned that I risk knocking. But it calms down after just 1-2 minutes and goes to 300-310°.  So I think that the risk of knocking is low as you never really wear the watch in a perfectly horizontal position.

 

Wound to the limit, straight off the wrist and onto the timegrapher (dial up):

 

After just 1min:

 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Knebo
typos

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, Knebo said:

Wound to the limit, straight off the wrist and onto the timegrapher (dial up):

Typically if you look at watch company specifications for timing is not supposed to wind it to the max and put it immediately on the timing machine. They usually have a recommended settling down time or whatever time it varies basically 15 minutes up to an hour is considered fully wound up.

 

 

[Jon]

I have a cut-off point of 335 amplitude. Anything below that is not going to knock. Anything that goes above that is usually going to start knocking. As this is an automatic it is generally going to be at full wind and full torque, but after a day or so it might settle down. It does seem quite a high amp for a 3155 to be honest. What spring did you fit? I find that at the total full wind for a 3135 it will be about 300 to 310. Did you put enough braking grease on the barrel walls? It might be slipping way too late.

[Knebo]

9 hours ago, Jon said:

I have a cut-off point of 335 amplitude. Anything below that is not going to knock. Anything that goes above that is usually going to start knocking. As this is an automatic it is generally going to be at full wind and full torque, but after a day or so it might settle down. It does seem quite a high amp for a 3155 to be honest. What spring did you fit? I find that at the total full wind for a 3135 it will be about 300 to 310. Did you put enough braking grease on the barrel walls? It might be slipping way too late.

Thanks, that's a very useful input! 

I fit a generic Generale Ressorts mainspring specifically meant for thr 3135. Screenshot below. 

I unfortunately didn't take a picture of the quantity of breaking grease applied. But I took pictures of a recent cal 2035 and I'd say that I put an equivalent (not equal, because the barrels are not the same size) amount. The picture should give an indication. I applied 5 blobs and then spread them out rather thin to avoid that putting the mainspring would result in pushing the blob down to the barrel floor. 

 

Last thing the point out, it really only takes 1min for the amplitude to settle at 300-310. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Knebo

[Knebo]

Any feedback on the amount of breaking grease (8217) in my picture above would be appreciated! @Jon

When I manually wind to the maximum, I can feel+hear when it starts slipping. I'd describe it as a gentle stutter. Not a lot of resistance in the crown, but I do feel it. Hard to guess exactly, but I'd say that it slips every 15-30 degrees of the barrel. 

Power reserve is measured at 49.5h vs the nominal 48h.

 

 

 

 

[Endeavor]

@Knebo Nicely done!

I downloaded your pictures of the oiling charts, as I may have to service my 3135 in the not-to-far future.

I serviced mine Submariner in 2016 and the horizontal amplitude, after 24hrs, sits now around the 190 degrees. On or below the threshold, depending on which instructions you read

If you have the oiling charts in pdf, I would greatly appreciate the charts in pdf's format

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Endeavor

[VWatchie]

26 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

If you have the oiling charts in pdf, I would greatly appreciate the charts in pdf's format

 

Just follow the link in the first post in this thread and you'll find the PDFs (or am I missing something?)

Here's some additional info and discussion on this movement:

I must say I find the "Do not lubricate" instructions interesting. Perhaps people servicing Rolex watches are too ambitious or overly creative 

Edited December 29, 2023 by VWatchie

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

serviced mine Submariner in 2016 and the horizontal amplitude, after 24hrs, sits now around the 190 degrees

Rolex_Movement_Calibre_3130_3185_5.pdfRolex 3135 parts (1).pdfThat's not bad for 7-8 years after the service! Congrats on a good job back then. But I guess it's time for a service indeed. It should be above 190-200° in VERTICAL positions after 24h. Don't wait too long. I recently serviced a Rolex 2035 had it's last service 10 years ago and both the reversing wheels and the rotor axle needed to be replaced. Cost of 350 EUR (for NOS, original parts))... and I'm pretty sure that this could have been avoided if it had come for service 2 years earlier. You'll find my thread about that service on the forum, too.

 

1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

If you have the oiling charts in pdf, I would greatly appreciate the charts in pdf's format

Here is everything you could possibly find on the forum in one place. Except my "special notes" (sorry, only phone pictures of those).

CALIBER-3135-3155-3175-3185-TECHNICAL-INFORMATION.pdfRolex oil chart 3135.PDFRolex 3135 parts (1).pdfRolex_Movement_Calibre_3130_3185_5.pdf

 

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

I must say I find the "Do not lubricate" instructions interesting. Perhaps people servicing Rolex watches are too ambitious or overly creative 

Indeed. It seems to be irresistible to lubricate the centers and the clicks of the reversers... 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Knebo

[Endeavor]

7 hours ago, Knebo said:

Don't wait too long.

I'm not wearing the watch daily, but I know, it's coming. First have to clear some other projects off my desk (an Omega 861 Mark II), get in the right mood (read: adrenaline levels ) and choose the right time-frame.......

Thanks for all the info. There is valuable additional information I didn't have.

Thanks again

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Endeavor

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, Knebo said:

Here is everything you could possibly find on the forum in one place.

I was curious as to where the one Rolex PDF came from the color service manual?

[Endeavor]

12 hours ago, Knebo said:

190-200° in VERTICAL

I was a bit confused about the 190-200 VERTICAL, so I went back to my "archive" and lucky me, I've done the 24hrs test (taken May 2023) correct. The lowest Vertical 24hrs amplitude reading was CR: 191 degrees (see picture). The other vertical 24hrs readings, CL, CU & CD were 196, 193 & 192 degrees respectively.

Just scraping by !

Servicing; It's not the movement I'm worried about, it's those nerves, as there is no room for a single error

 

 

[Knebo]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:30 PM, Knebo said:

Power reserve is measured at 49.5h vs the nominal 48h.

Correction: power reserve is 48.5h. So barely over nominal. I guess that excludes the worry of the mainspring slipping too late. I've not observed/heard any knocking. And timekeeping on the wrist is exquisite - so no signs of knocking. I'll just be happy with the high amplitude..