Dial foot replacement

[Waggy]

 Or 

 

Like I said, I'm probably missing something, I'm no electrical genius! 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

26 minutes ago, Waggy said:

 Or 

 

Like I said, I'm probably missing something, I'm no electrical genius! 

 

Haha no me neither.  Ah ok sorry, i didn't give any idea to the construction of the device.  The cream coloured base is made of timber, so the spring loaded post  would be live, does that matter ? I could insulate the horizontal sliding rod that holds the brass heat block. Just watched a video using a soldering iron that had a carbon rod end for resistance soldering.

[Waggy]

4 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

the spring loaded post  would be live, does that matter ?

As long as you didn't grab it at the same time you make the circuit 

[rossjackson01]

Still in awe. However for me it is a no go. I only have a 5ft x 3ft table. All shared with computer, printer, cabinets at one end for watches and spares. I move the Keyboard forward to allow my watch working box to be placed, moved from the top of the printer. Seat is lowered for ease of use. I do have a drawer cabinet behind the seat in which I keep the watch tools. Staking set, back openers, ultrasonic etc,.  I suppose my only saving grace is that after every practice I return everything to its place. Nothing is ever left out.

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by rossjackson01

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 minutes ago, Waggy said:

As long as you didn't grab it at the same time you make the circuit 

The problem would be resisting licking it to see what happens

2 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Still in awe. However for me it is a no go. I only have a 5ft x 3ft table. All shared with computer, printer, cabinets at one end for watches and spares. I move the Keyboard forward to allow my watch working box to be placed, moved from the top of the printer. Seat is lowered for ease of use. I do have a drawer cabinet behind the seat in which I keep the watch tools. Staking set, back openers, ultrasonic etc,. 

 

Your work area looks great Ross and you have all the workaround ideas to compensate for the lack of space you have. Like i said ingenuity mate.

[ManSkirtBrew]

So far I've only used the glue-on feet with the Aliexpress tool, but I've always been interested in soldering feet on.

I was looking at a resistance soldering kit like this one from Micro-Mark. While $180 USD isn't exactly cheap, it's also not Bergeon prices.

[watchweasol]

Hi Waggy in one respect it is live as you complete the circuit with the anode, but as it’s for no more than  two seconds and lov voltage. Twelve volts no problem. The heat is at the point creates the arc and melts the solder. Job done.  You can use a 12v bell transformer for the supply.

Hi NEW. wouldn’t adapt the manual one as everything is isolated and the cathode is attached to the post that holds the wire the carbon anode makes the circuit when placed on the foot wire, the table is also isolated.  Took me a day to make mine including a bit of lathe work

[watchweasol]

i this is the one I built simple enough  if you search  dial foot soldering and scan down thw list there is one on my machine dated Oct 4th 2019 with description.

[Waggy]

Just had a thought, could you place the dial in the freezer before working on it? This should drop it's temperature to -30°C (?) So when you heat the solder to 140°C, that -30°C should buy you some breathing space and protect the dial paint and any varnish etc. Also I think that the area of the dial around the solder site will work as a heat sink and pull the heat away from the solder area faster. If my thinking is correct this could provide a solution where you do not have the option of using a wet rag under the dial due to worries about  the paint etc. What do you think?

Edited December 24, 2023 by Waggy
Typo

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Waggy said:

Just had a thought, could you place the dial in the freezer before working on it? This should drop it's temperature to -30°C (?) So when you heat the solder to 140°C, that -30°C should buy you some breathing space and protect the dial paint and any varnish etc. Also I think that the area of the dial around the solder site will work as a heat sink and pull the heat away from the solder area faster. If my thinking is correct this could provide a solution where you do not have the option of using a wet rag under the dial due to worries about  the paint etc. What do you think?

Possibly, you would have to work very quickly though, by the time you have its position set up and that can take 5 mins easily if lining up the foot doesn't happen straight away,i think most of the cold temperature to the dial would have been lost. The dial face might condensate anyway with the sudden temperature change. But until its tried then I'm just conjecturing. The dial i worked on was one of those thin varnished sunburst types, the ones that are usually delicate. The dial itself wasn't perfect to start with and tbh i cant see any evidence of any additional damage from damping down its seating on the soldering tool or any burn marks at all. Its definitely something that will have your butt twitching if the dial is of importance .

[HectorLooi]

Unfortunately that won't work. By the time you align the dial foot to the correct spot, the dial would have reached room temperature. Unless you have a walk in freezer where you could actually work in subzero conditions. 

But I my experience, it's not necessary. You just have to go in hot and fast. Don't try temperature controlled soldering irons or hot air guns. The heat produced is not fast enough. Trust me, I've tried.

Use a microtorch or a carbon electrode, with a low fusing solder. And use copper wire and not brass for the dial feet.

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Unfortunately that won't work. By the time you align the dial foot to the correct spot, the dial would have reached room temperature. Unless you have a walk in freezer where you could actually work in subzero conditions. 

But I my experience, it's not necessary. You just have to go in hot and fast. Don't try temperature controlled soldering irons or hot air guns. The heat produced is not fast enough. Trust me, I've tried.

Use a microtorch or a carbon electrode, with a low fusing solder. And use copper wire and not brass for the dial feet.

Hot and fast !   Lol i like it . This comes from a guy that used to drill holes in people's teeth that had their right hand just in the right place to squeeze something delicate if things went pear-shaped . Am i forgiven for the rodidough yet ?

[HectorLooi]

Most vintage dials will survive the soldering. It's the modern ones using water slide decals and toner transfer that could be problematic.

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hot and fast ! 

And because I served in a medical unit in the army and was trained to go in hot and come out fast.

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Most vintage dials will survive the soldering. It's the modern ones using water slide decals and toner transfer that could be problematic.

And because I served in a medical unit in the army and was trained to go in hot and come out fast.

You've kept that one secret Hector, i salute you sir

[dnhb]

On 12/14/2023 at 9:43 AM, watchweasol said:

Hi. The charger is of the old type. 12 or 6 v.  Pretty basic.   If you google Dirk Fassbender  dial foot machine. Or Wesley R Door on the same subject both have simple designs for dial foot machines using a transformer and easy enough to build and they post how to do it. As well.   I will try to post my set up.  Try a search on the site for dial foo soldering, I put it on there when I built it it may still be there. It’s a black box with the posts on the top with a table.

Do you find that some applications need the 6v & some the 12v ? My charger also has a Motorbike as well as a Car setting: I wonder which of these might be safer/better....

[watchweasol]

8 hours ago, dnhb said:

Do you find that some applications need the 6v & some the 12v ? My charger also has a Motorbike as well as a Car setting: I wonder which of these might be safer/better....

Hi. My setup uses the 12v . The chargers have over current protection built in and are safe. The high current is at the rod end where it meets the dial and only a fraction of a second long enough to melt the solder paste or chips which ever you use.   I apply the tip to the rod and watch the joint as soon as the solder flows remove rod.

[nevenbekriev]

9 hours ago, dnhb said:

Do you find that some applications need the 6v & some the 12v ? My charger also has a Motorbike as well as a Car setting: I wonder which of these might be safer/better....

You have old pocket watch enamel dial? This method is not for such dials as the enamel breaks, see what I have writen in the other thread for You dial

[watchweasol]

As said enamel dials require a certain amount of expertise to replace dial feet as when manufactured the feet are fitted before the enammeling. Pocket watch dial feet are a bit more robust and are usually broken off by somebody prising the dial off. The normal brass or copper dials are no problem. Like most operations it requires common sense

[dnhb]

13 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

You have old pocket watch enamel dial? This method is not for such dials as the enamel breaks, see what I have writen in the other thread for You dial

Thanks again. Nev but another comment (by Hector above) says "Most vintage dials will survive the soldering. It's the modern ones using water slide decals and toner transfer that could be problematic." So I need to think what's best given that I bought this PW to learn on....

[HectorLooi]

When I talked about older dials, I was refering to silvered or plated dials. I'm not sure about enameled dials.

Enameled dials are coated with  powdered ceramic powder and fused at very high temperature to form an amorphous layer of porcelain. If you look at enameled dials, the enamel is applied to both sides of the dial to prevent warpage and crazing of the porcelain.

After heating the porcelain to such high temperatures (sometimes around 1000°C), there will be a lot of shrinkage when it cools. The coefficient of shrinkage of the porcelain and metal dial must be very similar or else cracks or flaking will result.

I've never tried soldering an enameled dial. I suspect the base metal is not brass but a higher melting point metal.

Do we have a ceramist in our forum to confirm this.

[RichardHarris123]

16 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

suspect the base metal is not brass but a higher melting point metal.

The one's I have worked on with chunks of missing enamel were brass.

[nevenbekriev]

I have experience with enamel dials. The base metal is copper.  They can easily bear heating to 500 degr. celsius with no damage. But they can't survive sudden  local heating while the rest of the dial is cool. The enamel on this local heated place breaks.  If You solder melts at about 180 degr., then You need to heat the whole dial  to 150-60 degr and hold it on this temperature, then it can be soldered easily with  normal soldering iron (for electronic components soldering) without  danger of damaging the enamel. You heat a big metal plate to constant 160 degr. and put the dial on it, wait for a while so the dial heats from the plate and then solder the leg(s) with the soldering iron. If the plate is to hot, then the solder will not harden, so You will not be able to solder the second leg without loosing the position of the first one. If it is to cool, then it will be very hard to heat the leg place on the dial enough so the solder will melt there.

[dnhb]

On 3/8/2024 at 8:08 PM, watchweasol said:

Hi. My setup uses the 12v . The chargers have over current protection built in and are safe. The high current is at the rod end where it meets the dial and only a fraction of a second long enough to melt the solder paste or chips which ever you use.   I apply the tip to the rod and watch the joint as soon as the solder flows remove rod.

Thanks. I'd like to try making such a soldering device but wonder about the possible eye damage due to any [near] UV light that might be emitted in use. Do you have any info on this aspect?

[tomh207]

31 minutes ago, dnhb said:

Thanks. I'd like to try making such a soldering device but wonder about the possible eye damage due to any [near] UV light that might be emitted in use. Do you have any info on this aspect?

Soldering does not involve UV light at all, I think you might be getting mixed up with spot welding.

 

Tom

[watchweasol]

Hi @dnhb there are no problems using the device as the spark lasts milliseconds and it’s not UV in any way.  If you look on the net for      Retrofitting when there is a need. By Wesley R Door you should find the simple device he built. Where about are you located regarding information .

Hi just trawl through my memory and a site with all the reagent information is.   Dirkfassbender de which gives you all you need to build a stand alone machine or if you wish I can post pictures of how mine is built.