Dial foot replacement

[Neverenoughwatches]

Eyup watch peeps, this is my first real restoration try with my dial foot soldering tool. This type is used with a micro blow torch and low melt soldering paste. Turned out rather well if i say so myself, as you can see from the pictures a piece of copper wire is fitted to the brass heat block at the top.  The dial itself lays on a cloth pad, i added a few drops of water just to dampen it down to protect the dial. Marking up the dial foot's position is really important as the surrounding area needs to cleaned up with 400 emery paper to get a good weld, without marking you risk losing the foot's position. So just a small dot from a needle and a scratched in crosshair to sight you in with the foot. The copper wire is held on the dial's back surface by the spring loaded sliding post although you do need some finger pressure as well, as i found out when placing the solder the wire will come off its position. The soldering process is very quick, 30 seconds tops, the low melt bubbles up at 138 degrees and is pulled into the joint quickly, then a quick blast of compressed air helps to stop any heat transfer to the dial. Job done and feels well stuck.  The tool was around £50 made by Bergeon,  some nutter on ebay has one up at nearly £500.  I did post one up last week on tools ebay has to offer, it went for £40, did anyone pay attention? 

[HectorLooi]

Yup. That's what I've been doing. Solder paste, microtorch. Heat the copper wire, not the dial. The end of the wire needs to flattened, then a bevel placed to give it a slight point. I think that increases the solder wetted area for more strength. 

Place a ring of solder paste where the copper wire touches the dial and heat the wire about 1 cm above the dial with the flame pointing horizontally. It only takes seconds.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

Yup. That's what I've been doing. Solder paste, microtorch. Heat the copper wire, not the dial. The end of the wire needs to flattened, then a bevel placed to give it a slight point. I think that increases the solder wetted area for more strength. 

Place a ring of solder paste where the copper wire touches the dial and heat the wire about 1 cm above the dial with the flame pointing horizontally. It only takes seconds.

Yes the end needs dressing square and flat, i didnt shape the foot but i understand what you mean. Once you've removed the excess solder to  reduce the foot back to it's  original diameter the only solder thats left is on the bottom. Next time i feel i want put a shallow seat in the dial with a round burr.

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Yup. That's what I've been doing. Solder paste, microtorch. Heat the copper wire, not the dial. The end of the wire needs to flattened, then a bevel placed to give it a slight point. I think that increases the solder wetted area for more strength. 

Place a ring of solder paste where the copper wire touches the dial and heat the wire about 1 cm above the dial with the flame pointing horizontally. It only takes seconds.

Just a little trick that I've figured out this morning Hector that you might be interested in, the copper wire i used was some crafting wire 0.8mm, slightly thinner than our uk 1mm lighting cable conductor. This was still slightly thicker than the original dial foot so I've had to mess around a bit trimming it down to fit in the foot hole. Its easy to roll out a section of wire to get the thickness you need between two heavy flat steel blocks/plates. You could even use a draw plate, but rolling out is easier and toughens up the wire as well. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[HectorLooi]

Wow! I guess fools really seldom differ.

I too use 0.8mm enamelled craft copper wire. After sanding the enamel coating off, it's about the correct diameter for dial feet.

I normally cut off about 3" and sand around 1 cm of one end. Then flatten the end and cone the end with a caborundum disk. I usually use about 3 to 4 mm for the dial foot and keep the remainder for another day.

[tomh207]

Something that might be worth trying, as an electronics apprentice we were taught to stretch the wire, admittedly tinned but should not make a difference, so it was straight before bending to fit the holes on a PCB. This did slightly thin it, you would still need to cut off and square then chamfer the end joint to the dial.

 

Tom

[Waggy]

Hi there I use a wire extruding/draw plate

So have some 1mm wire then just use the plate in steps to get what I want. Best bit is the more the more you extrude the longer it gets!

Not expensive £5-£20

 

[rossjackson01]

Wishing and hoping. Ah well! too expensive for me.

However, in my Christmas stocking is a 'Dial feet Repair Watch Tools Repair Welding and Bonding Watch dial Table feet tool kit'. ￡28.13 from Ali express. Funnily enough it does not weld, but allows me to drill and glue feet to the Dial.  Looking forward to using it as I have nearly a dozen watches awaiting dial feet repair. Only 1 damaged by me when starting this hobby. The rest damaged pre-purchase. Just love sellers don't you? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, tomh207 said:

Something that might be worth trying, as an electronics apprentice we were taught to stretch the wire, admittedly tinned but should not make a difference, so it was straight before bending to fit the holes on a PCB. This did slightly thin it, you would still need to cut off and square then chamfer the end joint to the dial.

 

Tom

Rolling out also gives you a nice straight piece. Annealing it makes it softer to roll out.

[Waggy]

12 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Wishing and hoping. Ah well! too expensive for me.

However, in my Christmas stocking is a 'Dial feet Repair Watch Tools Repair Welding and Bonding Watch dial Table feet tool kit'. ￡28.13 from Ali express. Funnily enough it does not weld, but allows me to drill and glue feet to the Dial.  Looking forward to using it as I have nearly a dozen watches awaiting dial feet repair. Only 1 damaged by me when starting this hobby. The rest damaged pre-purchase. Just love sellers don't you? 

Ross, I got one of these a while ago and have had mixed results. The problem is that the blade has a small point on it and this can cause it to dimple the good side of the dial. Its a balancing act, as you need to press hard enough for the blade to cut into the dial back otherwise the blade just spins without doing anything, but when you do press hard enough you end up dimpling the dial, so you can't win. Maybe it's just me? I tried taking off the point, but then the blade wanders when you are trying to cut into the back of the dial so is pretty much useless.

Just my experience, any maybe you can get it to work for you, but just thought I'd give you a heads up. This is the reason I have built my own welder/soldering set up.

[rossjackson01]

14 hours ago, Waggy said:

Just my experience, any maybe you can get it to work for you, but just thought I'd give you a heads up. This is the reason I have built my own welder/soldering set up.

May go down that route eventually. But am just beginning my journey on dial repair and this is a cost effective way for  me to learn.  Two more tools. Watch hand closing tool and a screw removal jig. Oh, and Fried book.  Roll on Christmas.

Edited December 12, 2023 by rossjackson01

[Waggy]

Ross, et al.,

Here is my home made system:

The stand is from Ali Express, it is supposed to be for a digital microscope, the jaws are a little too large, hence the rag to bulk up the OD of the pin vice so the jaws can grip it securely (temporary solution). The copper wire (dial foot to-be) is gripped in a standard double ended pin vice, with the upper jaws of the pin vice are removed so the wire can be fed through the body of the pin vice but still gripped securely in the bottom set of jaws. I put three or four layers of heat shrink on the outside body of the pin vice (under the rag in the picture) for grip and electrical insulation. Then I have 2 brass movement/dial holders (one large and one small) to hold the dial (also from Ali Express). Finally, I have a graphite rod as the anode with some 1 mm copper wire wrapped around it (you can just see the shape of it under the red heat shrink) and then heat shrink to insulate and keep the copper wire in place and then I removed the alligator clip from the anode and joined the anode wire to the copper wire on the graphite rod...with more heat shrink to secure it in place, then connected the cathode alligator clip to the brass movement holder as the electrical return path. The post-it note pad is just temporary, I have some silicone mat on order to replace the one currently on my desk, then I will cut up and use my old desk mat to glue over the base of the stand where the post it note pad now sits for grip (stop the brass movement holder from sliding around) and electrical insulation. Modes of operation:

1. I have a lab DC converter so I can use electricity to from a circuit by touching the graphite rod to the copper wire, creating heat to melt the solder paste on/around the copper wire where it touches the dial
2. I can remove the alligator clip and put the wires away, and then raise the pin vice and then apply heat directly to the copper wire (about 3-4 cm above the dial) using my micro torch (when MRs W is not using it to make crème brûlée) which will heat the wire and conduct the heat down the wire to melt the solder paste at the dial/copper wire interface

Let me know what you think

Edited December 13, 2023 by Waggy
Typo

[rossjackson01]

7 hours ago, Waggy said:

Let me know what you think

For me? Frightening as heck. In awe of you and neverenoughtwatches and the like. 

[Waggy]

9 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

For me? Frightening as heck.

A little for me too, I'm not an electrical engineer - so only 90% sure I won't fry myself when using it. Will have to wear my rubber boots when using it. But seriously, if anyone sees any potential issues, please let me know! 

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 12/13/2023 at 3:29 AM, Waggy said:

Ross, et al.,

Here is my home made system:

The stand is from Ali Express, it is supposed to be for a digital microscope, the jaws are a little too large, hence the rag to bulk up the OD of the pin vice so the jaws can grip it securely (temporary solution). The copper wire (dial foot to-be) is gripped in a standard double ended pin vice, with the upper jaws of the pin vice are removed so the wire can be fed through the body of the pin vice but still gripped securely in the bottom set of jaws. I put three or four layers of heat shrink on the outside body of the pin vice (under the rag in the picture) for grip and electrical insulation. Then I have 2 brass movement/dial holders (one large and one small) to hold the dial (also from Ali Express). Finally, I have a graphite rod as the anode with some 1 mm copper wire wrapped around it (you can just see the shape of it under the red heat shrink) and then heat shrink to insulate and keep the copper wire in place and then I removed the alligator clip from the anode and joined the anode wire to the copper wire on the graphite rod...with more heat shrink to secure it in place, then connected the cathode alligator clip to the brass movement holder as the electrical return path. The post-it note pad is just temporary, I have some silicone mat on order to replace the one currently on my desk, then I will cut up and use my old desk mat to glue over the base of the stand where the post it note pad now sits for grip (stop the brass movement holder from sliding around) and electrical insulation. Modes of operation:

1. I have a lab DC converter so I can use electricity to from a circuit by touching the graphite rod to the copper wire, creating heat to melt the solder paste on/around the copper wire where it touches the dial
2. I can remove the alligator clip and put the wires away, and then raise the pin vice and then apply heat directly to the copper wire (about 3-4 cm above the dial) using my micro torch (when MRs W is not using it to make crème brûlée) which will heat the wire and conduct the heat down the wire to melt the solder paste at the dial/copper wire interface

Let me know what you think

Nice setup Waggy which method are you more confident using ?

[Waggy]

I just got all the bits and set it up a week or two ago - I am waiting until I have a candidate watch to try it out on. When I set it up every watch I opened was missing dial feet, now I have the contraption I haven't had one...typical 

I think I should try the electrical system first, then if I hit any problems I can revert to the electrical-less option and use direct heat. 

But now I write this, I'm thinking it would make more sense to try it out on a scrap dial before going at the real thing. I'm on holiday from Friday for a week so will fire it up when I get back and see which mode gives the best results

[Neverenoughwatches]

20 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

For me? Frightening as heck. In awe of you and neverenoughtwatches and the like. 

Back at you Ross with your ingenuity, if i can do it anyone can . Its just about having a go to see what you are capable of. It took me another day and a half almost to finish polishing up the watch and crystal, lining up the dial was a pain as the other dial foot needed straightening out and reshaping, making a click spring that was missing, spent ages sorting out the hands that were loose, bent and kept catching and finding a secondhand hand that was also missing to broach out to the correct size .  Its a battered watch that had a lot of dial damage and wear in the movement to correct but of good quality so i thought worth at least trying to fix it up. The dial foot has held up well all the handling which was the main reason for restoring it. You know when you start something and you just dont want to let it beat you. And the brand name is kind of funny, like its been misspelt .

28 minutes ago, Waggy said:

I just got all the bits and set it up a week or two ago - I am waiting until I have a candidate watch to try it out on. When I set it up every watch I opened was missing dial feet, now I have the contraption I haven't had one...typical 

I think I should try the electrical system first, then if I hit any problems I can revert to the electrical-less option and use direct heat. 

But now I write this, I'm thinking it would make more sense to try it out on a scrap dial before going at the real thing. I'm on holiday from Friday for a week so will fire it up when I get back and see which mode gives the best results

I tried this one a couple of times on scrap dials first, the low melt solder is a must. The bond feels strong, but get  good clean shiny surfaces to solder to and definitely find a way to mark up permanently where the foot is to go. Unless you are super accurate with your placement there can be a little trial and error trimming up to do afterwards so do all your fitting up on a bare plate.

[Waggy]

31 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I tried this one a couple of times on scrap dials first, the low melt solder is a must. The bond feels strong, but get  good clean shiny surfaces to solder to and definitely find a way to mark up permanently where the foot is to go. Unless you are super accurate with your placement there can be a little trial and error trimming up to do afterwards so do all your fitting up on a bare plate.

Thanks, I have the low temp solder paste on standby, I think it's 138 °C and I also have a 1mm drill bit so I plan to mark the spot with this (barely breaking the surface of the material) and it will also give a positive location for the copper wire. Cleaning is a good tip, what did you use for this? I also recently watched a chronoglide video where they were soldering on dial feet and recommended making  slight point on the end of the wire to concentrate the current thereby increasing the localised heat, so I'll give that a go too.

[watchweasol]

Hi Waggy. I built my own as well some years ago using a car charger to supply the power. If I can find the picture I will post it for you. Like yours it can be used with a torch or arc, the arc is the quickest and less chance of burning the dial. Good set up best of both worlds.

[Waggy]

11 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

using a car charger to supply the power.

I thought about this, as I am worried my lab DC power supply will see the arc as a short and shut down, but to be honest this is just a guess, I suppose there is only one way to find out. I'd be interested in the spec of your car charger and how you have it set up/configured as this may be a better option in the long run.

99% of the ones I see on amazon are 'intelligent' or 'smart' battery chargers, not sure if this intelligence would get in the way of simply supplying current??

Edited December 14, 2023 by Waggy

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Thanks, I have the low temp solder paste on standby, I think it's 138 °C and I also have a 1mm drill bit so I plan to mark the spot with this (barely breaking the surface of the material) and it will also give a positive location for the copper wire. Cleaning is a good tip, what did you use for this? I also recently watched a chronoglide video where they were soldering on dial feet and recommended making  slight point on the end of the wire to concentrate the current thereby increasing the localised heat, so I'll give that a go too.

To mark up i used a needle point just to give me a center, i also scratched in a cross hair. I'm thinking of trying a round burr as well on some scrap. You need to make this your first job as the original position can dissappear when you clean up. 600 emery paper and then ipa, same on the copper wire, as with all soldering a good bond starts with a clean surface. A touch of self cleaning flux might help as well, not sure what flux is added to the low melt.

11 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Waggy. I built my own as well some years ago using a car charger to supply the power. If I can find the picture I will post it for you. Like yours it can be used with a torch or arc, the arc is the quickest and less chance of burning the dial. Good set up best of both worlds.

There is a definite risk of damaging the dial finish, if it was a good dial my arse would have been twitching watching the bluing of the copper travel down to the dial. The Bergeon device has a cloth pad that i wet down first, i would suggest a damp leather pad to lay the dial on, bere in mind delicate old dials that might not handle water.

[watchweasol]

Hi. The charger is of the old type. 12 or 6 v.  Pretty basic.   If you google Dirk Fassbender  dial foot machine. Or Wesley R Door on the same subject both have simple designs for dial foot machines using a transformer and easy enough to build and they post how to do it. As well.   I will try to post my set up.  Try a search on the site for dial foo soldering, I put it on there when I built it it may still be there. It’s a black box with the posts on the top with a table.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi. The charger is of the old type. 12 or 6 v.  Pretty basic.   If you google Dirk Fassbender  dial foot machine. Or Wesley R Door on the same subject both have simple designs for dial foot machines using a transformer and easy enough to build and they post how to do it. As well.   I will try to post my set up.  Try a search on the site for dial foo soldering, I put it on there when I built it it may still be there. It’s a black box with the posts on the top with a table.

Morning WW, just wondering if i can use this one as well for electrical soldering. The spring loaded post holds the copper wire in place really well. Thinking i can fix a terminal to the remaining foot and use the post to complete the circuit.

[Waggy]

@Neverenoughwatches May be missing something, but as soon as you touch the copper wire with the anode, wouldn't the whole thing become live?

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, Waggy said:

@Neverenoughwatches May be missing something, but as soon as you touch the copper wire with the anode, wouldn't the whole thing become live?

The dial would be insulated underneath, at the moment its just a worn out cloth pad that needs replacing. But yes anything metal would be live.

5 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The dial would be insulated underneath, at the moment its just a worn out cloth pad that needs replacing. But yes anything metal would be live.

Lol i meant complete the circuit by stroking the post with a carbon rod not a permanent connection.