Straightening the banking pins

[arron]

Hi Guys,

I can't find an answer to this question.  What is the best practice for physically straightening a bent banking pin, without a special tool.  I'm worried that by trying to straighten it, it will break.  I thought about trying to find a metal tube to slip over the pin, but maybe tweezers or pliers would do the trick.

I've read posts about WHEATHER or not to straighten the pin (or how to adjust it), but that's not my question.  Thank you.

Watch: Standard Watch Co.  BD006110; size 16.  Watch is currently a non runner.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, arron said:

Hi Guys,

I can't find an answer to this question.  What is the best practice for physically straightening a bent banking pin, without a special tool.  I'm worried that by trying to straighten it, it will break.  I thought about trying to find a metal tube to slip over the pin, but maybe tweezers or pliers would do the trick.

I've read posts about WHEATHER or not to straighten the pin (or how to adjust it), but that's not my question.  Thank you.

Watch: Standard Watch Co.  BD006110; size 16.  Watch is currently a non runner.

Something makes you think that it should be straightened ?

[arron]

I know it's hard to see in the photo but the pins are definitely not straight.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Something makes you think that it should be straightened ?

7 minutes ago, arron said:

I know it's hard to see in the photo but the pins are definitely not straight.

so the banking pins are not straight but would straightening them fix any problem or generate new problem? In other words are they bent for a reason for instance this tool

comes in a whole bunch of sizes and allows you to bend the baking pin for a specific reason.

Now as you can see for the tool is designed to Billy go in and adjust when the balance wheels in place when you don't have the balance wheel there because you want to make it nice and straight then you wouldn't need something fancy like this. But sometimes having a tube to put over it is nice because it allows you to see things a little better. If you had access to staking set punches for instance sometimes one of those will fit over the banking pin if there's enough room. You might Billy do it with your tweezers.

[arron]

I wonder if the bent pins are the reason it's not running.  I'll try putting it back together before re-positioning the pins and see what happens.  I'd prefer not to mess with them and run the risk of breakage if I don't have too.  And thanks for suggesting the staking set; that thing comes in all kinds of handy but for some reason I overlook its utility until its pointed out to me.  

[JohnR725]

45 minutes ago, arron said:

I wonder if the bent pins are the reason it's not running

was the watch running before you serviced it?

Things like banking pins do not happen by accident somebody did it before you and did they have a reason why? Although a lot of times people have no idea what the banking pins are for and because of that they like to play with them which leads to problems.

[oldhippy]

Unless you know what you are doing and have checked everything to do with the escapement you should never play with the banking pins. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, arron said:

I know it's hard to see in the photo but the pins are definitely not straight.

They may not be straight for a specific reason.

5 hours ago, arron said:

I wonder if the bent pins are the reason it's not running.  I'll try putting it back together before re-positioning the pins and see what happens.  I'd prefer not to mess with them and run the risk of breakage if I don't have too.  And thanks for suggesting the staking set; that thing comes in all kinds of handy but for some reason I overlook its utility until its pointed out to me.  

The small stakes that come in little cylinder wood containers are a perfect size to slip over the banking pins of a wristwatch. But as other folk have suggested these pins may be set up correctly bearing in mind that they make different things happen at the two far ends of the lever. Its easy to assume that they should be straight considering that everything else in a watch is straight up and down. 

[Nucejoe]

 Many would now wonder how to adjust the banking pins, once you got the above tool.

Google, 

" Guidence for adjusting the banking pins"       in NAWCC forum.

Master Nickelsilver teaches how to basically do the adjustment. 

Rgds

[arron]

John, it is a non runner; wound tight.  the balance seems good though.

 

I'm glad I posted before doing anything.  This will be a good learning experience.  I'll see if, and how, it runs before taking the next step as you have all suggested.  Have a nice day.

[RichardHarris123]

Remove the balance and push on the fork, it should snap side to side.  If not power isn't getting though to the level or the lock on the pallet stones is too deep. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, arron said:

John, it is a non runner; wound tight.  the balance seems good though.

usually what I like to do with nonrunning watches is to see if I can get them to run before I service them if I can. Sometimes there so incredibly sticky with lubrication that that's basically impossible.

I've attached a handout with a light reading on escapement's. I wouldn't necessarily assume that the Bent banking pins are the cause your problem because they're buried so far deep in the watch that they were that way by a watchmaker not by some casual person trying to tweak their watch to get it to run so more than likely the watch runs with the Bent banking pins because somebody bent them possibly because they change the pallet fork or something. But before bending them anywhere else you really need to evaluate whether escapement is set up correctly or not. That is why you have a handout with some light reading

Escapement handout wostep nscc.pdf

[arron]

Agreed.  thanks for the advice and the handout.

[arron]

Well, this explains why the watch wasn't running.  The impulse jewel is broken off.  Based on some research it sounds like the only practical thing is to look for a donor movement.  I've searched ebay and can't find the exact model, mine is the grade 95.  So the plan is to set it aside and see if one turns up eventually.  

[RichardHarris123]

You can buy impulse jewels.

[arron]

I've installed a loose jewel before so i think i could do that part of it.  but isn't it very hard to find one that fits; or am i exaggerating the problem?

[RichardHarris123]

Ebay sell these or Cousins sell them by size. 

[arron]

thanks.  i can't imagine going through all those looking for a fit; i'm too impatient.  but i'll have a look.  thanks again.

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, arron said:

Well, this explains why the watch wasn't running.  The impulse jewel is broken off.  Based on some research it sounds like the only practical thing is to look for a donor movement.  I've searched ebay and can't find the exact model, mine is the grade 95.  So the plan is to set it aside and see if one turns up eventually.  

One of things I always like to do with incoming watches and you're making an observation the watch is not running but if you get the balance wheel to rotate you always look to make sure that the pallet fork is moving. It's actually quite common on pocket watches for the balance to move the pallet fork not because of roller jewel missing..

Then from the look at your balance wheel it appears to be a single roller versus a double roller watch? The reason I bring this up is single roller watches require longer roller jewel's so often times modern assortments will not have a jewel long enough.

Then it's so sad  the roller jewel's been stolen by a previous watchmaker and now we have to throw the whole watch away because you don't have a roller jewel  if only there was something you could do?  No murdering another watch to seal its roller jewel is not an ideal solution.. If only we were dealing with watch repair we would have something to do  like  replace the roller jewel?

Then yes occasionally have a weird sense a humor it's based on your research and the outcome of your research that you get a weird paragraph up above.

Then we're going to need some tools and a few more tools after that plus it be really nice if the ruler was unfortunately broken off rather than falling off because that means there should be a little piece left that you can measure. Otherwise we have to do it the other way

So if you don't have the old jewel  you need a roller jewel gauge they, of course in a variety of styles and shapes  you could use a machinists or an automobile shop feeler gauge. In other words you need something to stick in the slot and measure its width  and then the jewel is just a tiny bit smaller.

We also need some shellac and roller jewel of the suitable size and a heck of a lot of patience to get up to go into its hole. Then yes they do make special tweezers reporters but you still have to get the roller jewel into those so  doesn't really matter the roller jewel is a pain in the something to get into the hole.

Then a variety of tools to hold it when you heat up and apply the shellac. Then once the shellac smelted in the jewel is not go fallout you can  gently straighten it out and get it where it's supposed to be.

 

Here's a better picture of the tool for holding newly roller table.. You will also note this is a double roller watch shorter roller jewel

Yes the pictures make it look so easy

Then looking up to the assortment a roller jewel's is a good thing to do I done it before except of course it helps to have the right assortment  like a vintage assortment versus a modern assortment

or  what about this website? Let me just snip something out for you

Then on another page he has one of these

Okay this will get you started

 

 

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

 

When was soldering gun invented ?   

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

When was soldering gun invented ? 

Who needs a soldering gun when you have a blowtorch.

Personally on my long list of projects that I haven't got around to doing I was thinking about the heater cartridge out of the 3-D printer. Figuring out a way to hold the roller table holder and my pallet fork holder Plus of course throwing in temperature control so I can free up my hands to play with the shellac.

Traditionally watch repair they used alcohol lamp. Except in between used alcohol dries up and then you grab a small butane torch which is not what I recommend doing because it's really hard to do a good job and really easy to do something bad. But unfortunately at work that's all I have is the small butane torch. Fortunately I almost never do a roller jewel and even less likely to do a pallet stone.

[mikepilk]

16 hours ago, arron said:

Well, this explains why the watch wasn't running.  The impulse jewel is broken off.  Based on some research it sounds like the only practical thing is to look for a donor movement.  I've searched ebay and can't find the exact model, mine is the grade 95.  So the plan is to set it aside and see if one turns up eventually.  

 

Try emailing Dave at  https://www.daveswatchparts.com/  he has some Standard movements and parts.

You may be able to find a new roller, or balance.

[Jon]

I find replacing a roller jewel one of the most fiddliest's jobs to do. Getting the jewel in place at the correct depth and dead straight is easier with the roller table removed in my experience rather than having it still attached to the staff. I still use the tool in Fig12 above, as no direct heat is given to the roller table and the shellac has some time before setting hard

[arron]

I not sure if I'm totally intimidated now by this repair or challenged.  I appreciate everyone's input.  I couldn't find the jewel on ebay; the uk seller doesn't have them.  I'll try Dave's next.  Have a great day guys.

[Nucejoe]

You can improvise with some basic tools.

Grab the roller table in a pin vice,  wiggle and pull to detach the roller table from staff,  soak in lighter fluid for an hour then grab it tight in a pin vice to push the broken jewel out. 

 Put thick grease on the hole impulse jewel is to get inserted in, you are using grease as you would rodico, the difference is once you have inserted the jewel in, grease  rinses off with chemicals easy.

So you rinse off the grease, flip the jewel over and grab in pin vice tight.

Shelac is a pain and making a mess is OK as long no shelac get on the impulse face of the jewel.

Trying to handle this task with a pair of tweezers is what makes fiddly, so punch a small  hole in a tooth pic to place the jewel in, next press it in futhure into the tooth pick, then the jewel can be inserted into roller hole.

Loosing the jewel is easy and a bummer, don't ask me how I know.

Frankly a used jeweld roller table get this watch out of your hair.