Balance Jewel Questions

[lee1979]

Hi, all,

I am hoping I can get some advice. I am working on my first watch. It is an old Tissot that I bought maybe 10 years ago (secondhand) and which stopped working maybe 5 years ago. Recently I decided to try to fix it. I have no experience so I've been watching a lot of YouTube videos and reading guides online.

It is a day/date watch, and since I started working on it I discovered it has an ETA 2846 movement. I managed to partially dismantle the watch and get it running again. I then decided to continue dismantling the watch and then clean, and re-lubricate/re-build it.

I have got half of the watch re-build and re-lubricated (the "non-face side), however i am hitting issues with the balance jewel/end stone.

I am attemping to use the technique of lubricating the flat side of the end stone and then placing the chatone(?) on top and then putting the whole thing back in the watch, but I am really finding it difficult.

After hours of struggling on this one task, I managed to lose one of the end stones. I looked online and found that the correct size for this movement is Inca 122.11, and ordered some replacements. However when they arrived they were slightly bigger in diameter than the end stone I had lost (at the time I still had one original stone to compare). I am not sure what fraction of a mlllimeter the difference was, but they basically look like they are the exact same size as the chatone, rather than a fraction smaller so that they would fit inside the chatone. I have now ordered a packet of mixed end stones of various sizes, so I can try to find one that fits in the chatone. To make matters worse, I continued trying to rebuild the balance jewel with the one "good" end stone I had left and managed to lose that one as well.

For this step, I am working with the jewels under a microscope. My tweezers look pretty perfect, even under the microscope. I know that I need to hold the jewels lightly, but getting a level of pressure where the jewel is held firmly enough, but not too firmly so that it pings away just seems to be beyond me. I apprciate that maybe the "correct" answer is that I need to improve my dexterity with the tweezers, but I have been struggling for literally 5+ hours on this one step.  

My questions:

1. If I find an end stone that fits exactly in the chatone is this likely to be ok?  
2. Why are the Inca 122.11 end stones not the correct size for the chatone? Would someone have replaced the chatones in the past perhaps? If so, would I be able to buy the original chatones so I can use the 122.11 end stones? I have struggled to find this part for sale. 
3. Would it make sense to put something like a piece of leather on the microscope "plate" so that at least parts don't ping off the surface? Do people do anything like putting tape on the ends of the tweeers so that there is a bit of "give" so that the stones are less likely to ping away when I exert a tiny amount too much pressure?

Any help much appreciated. If there's anything I missed, please let me know.

Thanks

Lee

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by lee1979

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, lee1979 said:

I am attemping to use the technique of lubricating the flat side of the end stone and then placing the chatone(?) on top and then putting the whole thing back in the watch, but I am really finding it difficult.

One of the problems for hobbyists learning watch repair his failure to grasp how to learn watch repair. Often relate watch repair like learning to be a doctor. You think they let the new students start cutting open anybody who walks through the door? Doctors get the study same as watchmakers hopefully. Then practicing everybody's practicing everybody on this group is still practicing. The case of your jewel your practicing on a live watch you should have something to practice on because it takes a lot of practice to be able to oil it and put it together without smearing the oil and putting it in place.

Oh and the other problem with YouTube videos are nobody wants to show you the mistakes no one wants to show you that took them 50,000 tries to learn how to do what you're trying to do. Everything looks so simple wonderful nice just like a fairy tale which isn't always the real world but they're not going to show you that.

Oh and by the way that doesn't apply just to watch videos it applies the lots of stuff on YouTube. A lot of product reviews will go really smooth and nice because they didn't show you the learning curve to get to where they were to use the item.

13 hours ago, lee1979 said:

old Tissot

Now going through your entire questions let's start with the basics you did figure out what the watch is equivalent to but does it have a model number? Often times sometimes watches are changed from the base caliber there based on sometimes are not. But if the watch has a caliber number it be nice if we could

because now it puts us in a slight disadvantage of what exactly this really is.

13 hours ago, lee1979 said:

ETA 2846

So we will assume you got it right even though you got the wrong part which brings up doubt in my mind but okay will assume you got it right because that's all I have to work with. Oh dear I see here in the safe zone that means us must be really really really nice to you but I don't feel like changing my wording So you are going to have to live with it.

Basically what I like to see when someone posts a question is if they know the model of the watch and it be nice to have a picture of the watch so we can see what you're working on. Often times people may not recognize the model number but the recognize the watch or the problems at the watch will have and it just helps when you're trying to help somebody to grasp what it is were looking at.

That I may sprinkle random thoughts even as I'm going through figuring out how to answer a question like depending upon the age of the watch we may have variations. A lot of watches were made over multiple generations and that results in lots of difference more possibility of different components. Often times related to the balance wheel like going from no shock protection to a variety of systems some of which can be documented some that may not

so here's the parts list for the allegedly watch

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=ETA_2846

Okay because I like pictures and because this website is nice it will tell us about variations and doesn't look like there should be any variations relatively short production run

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&ETA_2846

Then we get something odd normally when you look up service guides you don't get those sort of. For instance cousins is where I got the two PDFs down below and normally the service guides where the PDFs basically are the parts list. Often times the service part was stripped off in favor of parts because that's all anybody ever needed. So even though the filename indicates there's only four pages it looks like it has the complete service guide? Then the other document they had was the manufacturing information which has less information than normally would find in the manufacturing information. Plus typically cousins doesn't even have the manufacturing information. So manufacturing information has stuff related to manufacturing of using the watch in a product but I like because in the newer versions it has all the nice technical stuff including all the technical timing specifications missing from this one?

13 hours ago, lee1979 said:

Inca 122.11

Now before we get to this and the rest your questions which I may just skip over anyway. I'm not a big fan of microscopes for general watch work. But there's a active discussion on the group right now that goes against my narrative I like to look into my work it might be easier if you're looking into whatever you're doing rather than looking down on it. But that will go against the narrative of the group that's just my two cents here. But no matter what you need to practice this is where it be nice to purchase some scrap jewel assemblies off of eBay or where everyone to purchase them from and just practice oiling them over and over again.

Oh how do curiosity have your looked at detective books TV shows and thought I would like to be a detective? Congratulations because to be successful at watch repair you have to be a detective. You have to look at each watch is a crime scene and figure out what the problem is unfortunately cleaning would always fix your problem. Looking for parts not always a simple task once again it's detective work lots of it to get whatever you need or figure out why whatever you have is wrong

so jewels from the link above

Looks like the end stone matches your part number we have a problem? Of course you've already verify the problem let's look at the balance jewel itself and see what happens plus I get attached a parts list let's see what it says

Oh and minor little problem right now? If you look at the parts list on the website above and you click on the part number it will tell you all the watches that use that part. So you're  end stone is used in lots and lots of lots of watches but I don't see any Tissot? This comes back to we don't know what was changed from the original caliber to the Tissot Maybe nothing and maybe it's just a coincidence that we can skip over but since are having a problem well it's making me wonder

But no matter what it looks like that's a really popular part and sooner or later you'll probably need it again for something else

Then the entire jewel assembly if that's what it is that does cross-referenced to separate Tissot Calibers.

This might come in handy someday and it's really hard to find it on the website now the kind of hit it

Well if I'm interpreting this right if you have a problem which you already know that you have because

Oh and the other number that they had is a number referring to the parts assortment as a guess so if I go find my assorted of those number eight in six or whatever the numbers are would be position numbers irrelevant for this discussion. So the 111 is what we have an image up above 09 should be the pivots Size. Then the end stones that typically come in two thicknesses one for the dial side typically thin a lot of times physically smaller settings would be used in other words you don't see it they just new functionality. The other side especially with depending upon how thick all the regulator components are will be a lot thicker usually physically bigger because it looks pretty but those do seem to correspond your parts.

If you measure the outer diameter of your setting and be careful not the crush the thing what is it's diameter according to that it's 1.35 so if it's bigger than that we might Be able to figure out what end stone you're supposed to have.

14 hours ago, lee1979 said:

• If I find an end stone that fits exactly in the chatone is this likely to be ok?  
• Why are the Inca 122.11 end stones not the correct size for the chatone? Would someone have replaced the chatones in the past perhaps? If so, would I be able to buy the original chatones so I can use the 122.11 end stones? I have struggled to find this part for sale. 

My answer is getting too long in my brains getting tired hopefully this will make sense. So yes if you find the end stone that fits I think you'll find it's really hard to damage the thing. So it should be okay

then it would be unlikely anybody would've replaced it as it wouldn't fit except conceivably too lazy to go look up the spelling of the company name but often times they just stamp their names on the watches but there is a conceivability that they changed something a lot of times watches that are based on calibers are not exactly the same as the caliber. We won't know until you get us a number so we can look that up

Okay finding and stones and parts for sale? If you look at the fine print of a lot of websites you will find that specifically and watch repair they don't list everything online sometimes you have to ask. Cousins you can't ask because the closely guarded anything it resembles in a way to talk to human beings pivots on online they don't have it. But what about the site were looking at for cross reference we get this

The 400/11 should be a best fit number physical bestfit books are really nice to have or the PDFs. Because I paid for my PDFs I won't tell anyone typically were to download them for free but if you ask someone will tell you where to download it for free.

Okay 400/11 is not a good search because well I'll let you try that it might be there I just might not have seen it was scanning through with all the variations

Interesting they do have the end stone they just won't let me search for the whole thing as a keep coming up with lots of silly other answers

http://www.julesborel.com/s.nl/it.A/id.25032/.f

Okay temporarily to give up looking for the jewel setting I did find one on eBay but I'm still curious about the original watch movement number as to whether that changes anything at all

 

3927_ETA 2846 Pages 1-4_smaller.pdf 3592_ETA 2846 manufacturing information.pdf

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

One of the problems for hobbyists learning watch repair his failure to grasp how to learn watch repair. Often relate watch repair like learning to be a doctor. You think they let the new students start cutting open anybody who walks through the door? Doctors get the study same as watchmakers hopefully. Then practicing everybody's practicing everybody on this group is still practicing. The case of your jewel your practicing on a live watch you should have something to practice on because it takes a lot of practice to be able to oil it and put it together without smearing the oil and putting it in place.

Oh and the other problem with YouTube videos are nobody wants to show you the mistakes no one wants to show you that took them 50,000 tries to learn how to do what you're trying to do. Everything looks so simple wonderful nice just like a fairy tale which isn't always the real world but they're not going to show you that.

Oh and by the way that doesn't apply just to watch videos it applies the lots of stuff on YouTube. A lot of product reviews will go really smooth and nice because they didn't show you the learning curve to get to where they were to use the item.

Now going through your entire questions let's start with the basics you did figure out what the watch is equivalent to but does it have a model number? Often times sometimes watches are changed from the base caliber there based on sometimes are not. But if the watch has a caliber number it be nice if we could

because now it puts us in a slight disadvantage of what exactly this really is.

So we will assume you got it right even though you got the wrong part which brings up doubt in my mind but okay will assume you got it right because that's all I have to work with. Oh dear I see here in the safe zone that means us must be really really really nice to you but I don't feel like changing my wording So you are going to have to live with it.

Basically what I like to see when someone posts a question is if they know the model of the watch and it be nice to have a picture of the watch so we can see what you're working on. Often times people may not recognize the model number but the recognize the watch or the problems at the watch will have and it just helps when you're trying to help somebody to grasp what it is were looking at.

That I may sprinkle random thoughts even as I'm going through figuring out how to answer a question like depending upon the age of the watch we may have variations. A lot of watches were made over multiple generations and that results in lots of difference more possibility of different components. Often times related to the balance wheel like going from no shock protection to a variety of systems some of which can be documented some that may not

so here's the parts list for the allegedly watch

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=ETA_2846

Okay because I like pictures and because this website is nice it will tell us about variations and doesn't look like there should be any variations relatively short production run

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&ETA_2846

Then we get something odd normally when you look up service guides you don't get those sort of. For instance cousins is where I got the two PDFs down below and normally the service guides where the PDFs basically are the parts list. Often times the service part was stripped off in favor of parts because that's all anybody ever needed. So even though the filename indicates there's only four pages it looks like it has the complete service guide? Then the other document they had was the manufacturing information which has less information than normally would find in the manufacturing information. Plus typically cousins doesn't even have the manufacturing information. So manufacturing information has stuff related to manufacturing of using the watch in a product but I like because in the newer versions it has all the nice technical stuff including all the technical timing specifications missing from this one?

Now before we get to this and the rest your questions which I may just skip over anyway. I'm not a big fan of microscopes for general watch work. But there's a active discussion on the group right now that goes against my narrative I like to look into my work it might be easier if you're looking into whatever you're doing rather than looking down on it. But that will go against the narrative of the group that's just my two cents here. But no matter what you need to practice this is where it be nice to purchase some scrap jewel assemblies off of eBay or where everyone to purchase them from and just practice oiling them over and over again.

Oh how do curiosity have your looked at detective books TV shows and thought I would like to be a detective? Congratulations because to be successful at watch repair you have to be a detective. You have to look at each watch is a crime scene and figure out what the problem is unfortunately cleaning would always fix your problem. Looking for parts not always a simple task once again it's detective work lots of it to get whatever you need or figure out why whatever you have is wrong

so jewels from the link above

Looks like the end stone matches your part number we have a problem? Of course you've already verify the problem let's look at the balance jewel itself and see what happens plus I get attached a parts list let's see what it says

Oh and minor little problem right now? If you look at the parts list on the website above and you click on the part number it will tell you all the watches that use that part. So you're  end stone is used in lots and lots of lots of watches but I don't see any Tissot? This comes back to we don't know what was changed from the original caliber to the Tissot Maybe nothing and maybe it's just a coincidence that we can skip over but since are having a problem well it's making me wonder

But no matter what it looks like that's a really popular part and sooner or later you'll probably need it again for something else

Then the entire jewel assembly if that's what it is that does cross-referenced to separate Tissot Calibers.

This might come in handy someday and it's really hard to find it on the website now the kind of hit it

Well if I'm interpreting this right if you have a problem which you already know that you have because

Oh and the other number that they had is a number referring to the parts assortment as a guess so if I go find my assorted of those number eight in six or whatever the numbers are would be position numbers irrelevant for this discussion. So the 111 is what we have an image up above 09 should be the pivots Size. Then the end stones that typically come in two thicknesses one for the dial side typically thin a lot of times physically smaller settings would be used in other words you don't see it they just new functionality. The other side especially with depending upon how thick all the regulator components are will be a lot thicker usually physically bigger because it looks pretty but those do seem to correspond your parts.

If you measure the outer diameter of your setting and be careful not the crush the thing what is it's diameter according to that it's 1.35 so if it's bigger than that we might Be able to figure out what end stone you're supposed to have.

My answer is getting too long in my brains getting tired hopefully this will make sense. So yes if you find the end stone that fits I think you'll find it's really hard to damage the thing. So it should be okay

then it would be unlikely anybody would've replaced it as it wouldn't fit except conceivably too lazy to go look up the spelling of the company name but often times they just stamp their names on the watches but there is a conceivability that they changed something a lot of times watches that are based on calibers are not exactly the same as the caliber. We won't know until you get us a number so we can look that up

Okay finding and stones and parts for sale? If you look at the fine print of a lot of websites you will find that specifically and watch repair they don't list everything online sometimes you have to ask. Cousins you can't ask because the closely guarded anything it resembles in a way to talk to human beings pivots on online they don't have it. But what about the site were looking at for cross reference we get this

The 400/11 should be a best fit number physical bestfit books are really nice to have or the PDFs. Because I paid for my PDFs I won't tell anyone typically were to download them for free but if you ask someone will tell you where to download it for free.

Okay 400/11 is not a good search because well I'll let you try that it might be there I just might not have seen it was scanning through with all the variations

Interesting they do have the end stone they just won't let me search for the whole thing as a keep coming up with lots of silly other answers

http://www.julesborel.com/s.nl/it.A/id.25032/.f

Okay temporarily to give up looking for the jewel setting I did find one on eBay but I'm still curious about the original watch movement number as to whether that changes anything at all

 

3927_ETA 2846 Pages 1-4_smaller.pdf 1.83 MB · 0 downloads 3592_ETA 2846 manufacturing information.pdf 1.51 MB · 0 downloads

Haha as always John , one hell of a post with loads of information, but some of you just cracks me up. I like to think of it as read learn and laugh. 

[JohnR725]

6 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

one hell of a post with loads of information

The unfortunate reality of my answers sometimes is too much information. Then occasionally I get newbies that are bent out of shape because they think they're extremely knowledgeable and I somehow insulted their intelligence or somebody just Would like a quick fast answer which this is not this is a learning experience. But based on the detail of the question I'm assuming the person who hopefully will have my server and make use of it.

Then I knew I saw an assortment somewhere. All sorts of interesting parts on this page scroll down far enough and five complete jewel assemblies for bargain price.

Otherwise if you find the assortments on eBay a balance jewel assemblies they look nice and assorted until you get them and you find that there probably just one type and probably not what you're looking for at all. I'll give you all the way to the bottom of the page notice they say are supposed to telephone them to inquire. Other material houses you can email because typically the ones in the USA do not list everything online. Then of course there's all the other scattered around the planet material houses that don't even show up anywhere visually but they still exist. Basically your local material houses.

https://www.ofrei.com/page1438.html

 

[lee1979]

HI John,

Thanks very much for your response. The  photo attached shows the movement and you can see it is engraved/stamped wiith 2846. This is why I was assuming it is an ETA-2846.

Using my caliper, which is probably not really accurate enough, the chaton seems to be ~1.20mm in diameter.

I don't know whether it's helpful, but the spring/clip that holds the jewel in place is not like any of those in the table you sent, but is actually like this one (see attached). Note that this second photo isn't my actual watch, but I couldn't get a good photo of the part with my phone

Lee

 

[Nucejoe]

16 hours ago, lee1979 said:

 i am hitting issues with the balance jewel/end stone.

I am attemping to use the technique of lubricating the flat side of the end stone and then placing the chatone(?) on top and then putting the whole thing back in the watch, but I am really finding it difficult.

1- Put a bit of oil on flat side of the free end of your screwdriver.

2- Drop the end stone on a clean sheet of paper ( flat side down so dome side would be up) 

3- Press on top of the end stone with the tweezers you prepared so the oil picks up the end stone, with flat side staring at you right in the eye. 

4-Lube the flat side of the end stone.

5-With flat side of end stone up, aim for the chaton, once there flip it over so end stone is right on top of the chaton, slide the screwdriver back to leave the stone in chaton.

6- Lock the in- cab-loc  shock spring.

7- A bit of light fluid on tissue paper, GENTLY wipe off the oil on dome side of the end stone.

There is no law  limitting you to do this task with tweezers.

Your okay as long as end stone exactly fits the chaton and shock springs secure end stone/ chaton / inside the setting housing.

Good luck pal.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Nucejoe

[praezis]

Hello,

your movement is Unitas, no Eta (see Ebauche logo). 

The shock device is Kif, no Incabloc.

Hope this helps,

Frank

[Marc]

43 minutes ago, praezis said:

your movement is Unitas, no Eta (see Ebauche logo).

I think actually that it is ETA and not Unitas.

Definitely not Incabloc though. Could be KIF, but also could be Novodiac (they look pretty much the same to me).

Edited November 1, 2023 by Marc
Additional image

[RichardHarris123]

53 minutes ago, Marc said:

I think actually that it is ETA and not Unitas.

Definitely not Incabloc though. Could be KIF, but also could be Novodiac (they look pretty much the same to me).

Haha, I think you're correct with the Novodiac but like you, I  have difficulty telling them apart. 

[Nucejoe]

Oops   , 

 I assumed shock spring is lyre, this one kif or novadiac is pain and risky to lock with the cock in situ, do you have an anvil which can accomodate the cock with balance tangling? 

 

 

[lee1979]

thanks, @Nucejoe.

I will definitely try this alternate method. So basically, pick up the end stone on the curved side with the screwdriver by using a little oil on the screwdriver, then clean the curved side at the end when everything is locked in place.

I actually bought a tool (like a screwdriver with a cylindrical end with 3 cutouts) for doing the shock spring because I was finding it difficult.

I have my pack of mixed end stones now (arrived earlier today), so next step is finding some of the correct size for the chaton.

Lee  

 

yes, it is Novodiac, I think. This is the tool I bought to install remove the springs

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, lee1979 said:

This is why I was assuming it is an ETA-2846.

I would still like to see a picture of the regional caliber number and not the OEM movement number. If I do a search 2846 only belongs to eta

Then from the bestfit book we have this

Does seem to resemble what we have up above though

Does not seem to resemble lists

But when the images are slightly fuzzy it's confusing

now we go back to my original concern or question the base caliber is engraved it was manufactured and sold by somebody else we need their number because obviously they've modified it as a very clearly is not a

3 hours ago, Marc said:

not Incabloc

Yes it's very clearly not that which is what often happens when companies modify OEM movements to make them into their own that is why we need the original watch number which I don't see it? That means now with the spend a lot of time and we need better pictures of the spring etc.

Then you can look at this page for what it does not look like but they has some other types. The problem is with balance spring is if you're not what we think they are according the bestfit book there's quite a few different brands and types it comes back to it be helpful to have the original watch number otherwise were wasting a lot of time

https://www.incabloc.ch/en/shock-absorbers/

Now this is where I could just bypass all of this and look in something in the bestfit book the problem is your watches to new the case of bestfit book I can look up the original brand name and look for watch the cross-references to what you have but it's too new so it all comes back to somewhere on the regional watch you should find a number Located near the word Tissot.

9 hours ago, lee1979 said:

Using my caliper, which is probably not really accurate enough, the chaton seems to be ~1.20mm in diameter.

Unfortunately a waste of time until we know the actual caliber number figure out the correct system of balance protection this is. But no matter what that's why you're jewel to work because it's the wrong jewel has watches and modified by the company

[Marc]

4 hours ago, Marc said:

Could be KIF, but also could be Novodiac (they look pretty much the same to me).

On closer examination I'm pretty comfortable that it is actually Novodiac.

36 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

when companies modify OEM movements

I also came across a post here which seems to suggest that it is possibly an OEM fitment (post #6), although I have as yet to find a primary source for that information.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Marc
typo

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, Marc said:

I also came across a post here which seems to suggest that it is possibly an OEM fitment (post #6), although I have as yet to find a primary source for that information.

One of the problems with watch companies are they do not necessarily like us were specifically watch repair people. Well they might like their own people the Swatch group has a nice website filled with all kinds of brand information but only for those chosen people. So a lot of the technical information available comes from questionable sources and stuff that just isn't right at all and those that have axis of Swatch group have the documentation typically they won't share because they would get in trouble. So there's that minor problem especially with newer stuff where in the olden days there was more information available out there is a watch companies were not so secretive on what they're doing or not doing

10 hours ago, lee1979 said:

I will definitely try this alternate method. So basically, pick up the end stone on the curved side with the screwdriver by using a little oil on the screwdriver, then clean the curved side at the end when everything is locked in place.

Still the best way to lubricate this would be to disassemble it. Then it depends upon the spring they can still go back together when it's on the bridge. It just depends upon which one it is. Because if you try to clean it assembled you still have to lubricate it and unless You have a automatic oiler you're never going to get the oil down where you need to.

Then we have a brand name why don't we have the caliber of that watch? Did I fail to read it up above someplace?

[Nucejoe]

11 hours ago, lee1979 said:

thanks, @Nucejoe.

I will definitely try this alternate method. So basically, pick up the end stone on the curved side with the screwdriver by using a little oil on the screwdriver, then clean the curved side at the end when everything is locked in place.

I actually bought a tool (like a screwdriver with a cylindrical end with 3 cutouts) for doing the shock spring because I was finding it difficult.

I have my pack of mixed end stones now (arrived earlier today), so next step is finding some of the correct size for the chaton.

Lee  

 

yes, it is Novodiac, I think. This is the tool I bought to install remove the springs

Right, chaton must be in the housing as you aim for it with the end stone.

Yes if the jaws of this bergeon  fit the spring it will work.

I wouldn't attempt installing the spring with the cock installed in the movement, as you risk damaging the balance or pivots as you push on the spring, best to have the balance cock with balance attached on an anvil or somehow secured when you push on the spring.

Seperating  balance from the  cock is a bad idea, as its supposedly adjusted and regulated now.  

Good luck 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Nucejoe

[lee1979]

I found on the watch back A660/760K. Difficult to read even under the microscope. Googling this number seems to bring up pictures of my watch, although mine didn't say "Seastar" on the dial. 

[RichardHarris123]

Here you go. 

[JohnR725]

12 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Here you go. 

Yes we know that but we have a problem as it's also not that one? Because we would looked up parts for that watch the balance jewel assembly doesn't seem to match and there's something else that doesn't match we need a different picture

12 hours ago, lee1979 said:

I found on the watch back A660/760K. Difficult to read even under the microscope. Googling this number seems to bring up pictures of my watch, although mine didn't say "Seastar" on the dial. 

Helpful and unhelpful unfortunately. I need a picture now again back up a little bit I need the top of the balance bridge basically I need to see the entire balance wheel and the entire balance bridge you can move the weight out of the way it just get a general shot as we have a mystery?

[lee1979]

Hi, @JohnR725

Are these photos helpful?

Thanks

Lee

[Nucejoe]

How does the hairspring coil look when not installed on mainplate?  

 

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, lee1979 said:

Are these photos helpful?

Yes those are exactly what I was looking for because I was having a confusion. Then the numbers didn't necessarily help with my confusion all it led to was more confusion and then I saw a better picture which if you guessed confusion you guess the right word.

I believe that's a picture of your shock jewel assembly? Plus my confusion was with the regulator system I thought this was an older movement. Normally the manufacturing information sheet that I attached up above would've answered this question. Because in the typical manufacturing information sheets they specify the different balance shock protection systems and we would've got an answer. But the one attached up above is different than what I'm used to it doesn't have that specification.

Then we have the problem Swatch group they make the watch but who did they make it for? You can go to the eta website download technical sheets for a lot of their watches but if it's interesting Swatch group it's not going to be found there at all. It's still going to exist possibly just isn't going to exist out in the open. This then of course present parts challenges exactly what we've run into.

Let's is figuring out what my confusions where I went looked at another source. Bestfit In the past published cross reference books for parts also supplies parts To material houses. But there also online it's a one time price so it's not free but it's not that expensive either well worth it. For instance let's look up your watch and we see something different.

I just snipped out all the 400 series the lower would be the system that you perceived it is but it is not. It's the upper three that become interesting we have the spring that fits the description of what you have. You do not have individual components unfortunately you get the entire assembly. Think about it as getting the part you need with bonus parts.

Then I get a cross reference to see what else would be using this.

Now I go back to the borel Look up your watch again and wrong part exactly what you have now. But knowing what your part or at least the correct part should cross reference to a track that down and there it is it just doesn't list your watch. So for some reason they are behind on the updates

So once we have a part number and I feel reasonably confident this is the right part number you can go to the main website do a search and it's available.

http://www.julesborel.com/s.nl/it.A/id.25003/.f

 

 

 

 

[lee1979]

Thanks. @JohnR725. 

So, this shock setting is equivalent to the part 3004 in the original document you uploaded?

I managed to find some end stones in the "selection pack" I bought, that seem to be the correct diameter. I am planning this morning to try to rebuild the balance wheel with these. 

A separate question, should the watch run without the jewel(chaton or end stone) inserted? Currently my watch doesn't, I'm hoping that is to be expected?

 

Thanks

Lee

[JohnR725]

47 minutes ago, lee1979 said:

So, this shock setting is equivalent to the part 3004 in the original document you uploaded

If we get everything right it should be the exact part. It's interesting is drawing of the very beginning shows there setting and servicing parts shows the correct setting for your watch?

51 minutes ago, lee1979 said:

A separate question, should the watch run without the jewel(chaton or end stone) inserted? Currently my watch doesn't, I'm hoping that is to be expected?

A lot of times they will run without the settings in place but ideally are supposed to have the setting in place.

[lee1979]

With the end stones I found, I managed to get the balance rebuilt and the watch running. 

I set it running and it ran for an hour (then I released the main spring, it didn't stop), however the amplitude is only about 90 degrees.. To be honest, i have been struggling with the balance wheel for so long I can't remember whether I lubricated the "outer" (visible) jewels of the power train.. looking under the microscope I can't see any sign of oil. Is it likely this low amplitude would be cause by only having oil on one side of the power train, or is it more likely a problem with the main spring? Or something else?

Thanks

Lee

Edited November 4, 2023 by lee1979

[JohnR725]

36 minutes ago, lee1979 said:

it didn't stop),

That's not a good sign. Normally when you release the power it should be released and if it's not being released that is definitely an issue.

37 minutes ago, lee1979 said:

however the amplitude is only about 90 degrees..

That would also be very bad and what exactly are you using the measured the amplitude and if you measure the amplitude crown down how does that change plus the other dial position I assume you're doing it dial down what is it doing dial up?

40 minutes ago, lee1979 said:

I can't see any sign of oil. Is it likely this low amplitude would be cause by only having oil on one side of the power train, or is it more likely a problem with the main spring? Or something else?

Clean watches can actually run a surprisingly well with no lubrication at all. Escapement's their lubrication can have a huge impact. Then unfortunately until we narrow it down it could be just about anything mainsprings definitely a concern not letting down and something else is also a concern. Like changing the balance jewel assemblies how much end shake you now have? In other words if there is or not the original and if there's some reason difference and even the end stone for instance if you have the Curved side down versus up that would change the end shake that could be an issue.

So now go back to the basics like you remove the balance wheel and the pallet fork slowly wind the watch up what happens? Does the train started to immediately spin or doesn't seem to have a hesitation. Then you might as well go ahead and lubricate things because with the amount of troubleshooting and things you been doing basically once you get the watch running the red disassemble whole thing and do it all over again so all the lubrication is proper way it's supposed to be. After all this is a learning discussion group and what better way to learn than doing it all over again preferably without the issues you had before.