Balance Jewel Questions

[lee1979]

Hi @JohnR725

No, I mean that the watch was carrying on running. It only stopped when I let off the power of the main spring. I just meant that it was running despite the low amplitude, and only stopped running because I stopped it

[JohnR725]

15 hours ago, lee1979 said:

No, I mean that the watch was carrying on running. It only stopped when I let off the power of the main spring. I just meant that it was running despite the low amplitude, and only stopped running because I stopped it

thanks for the clarification because I know of somebody that was working on a watch and they let the power off and I think I've occasionally seen this where the watch keeps on running because there is still power the mainspring even though there should be.

But you still have low amplitude?

I do curiosity if you wind the watch up how long does it run before it comes to a stop?

[lee1979]

Hi, @JohnR725

I think the problem is that the balance doesn't seem to move completely freely.

I'm wondering whether this is because the end stones were a bit thicker than the originals? Is that possible? Putting pressure on the pivot? 

I am going to try thinner end stones, as the springs don't seem perfect either because the end stones are a fraction thicker.

Lee

[Nucejoe]

 As a test, Loosen  cock screw to release pressure on pivot.

To create end shake one can shim the cock, or mainplate can be gauged or move the settinig.

PIvot end wouldn't know thick or thin end stones apart. 

Rgds

 

[lee1979]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

 As a test, Loosen  cock screw to release pressure on pivot.

To create end shake one can shim the cock, or mainplate can be gauged or move the settinig.

PIvot end wouldn't know thick or thin end stones apart. 

Rgds

 

Hi @Nucejoe

Looking at a diagram of how the balance wheel shock system works i didn't think logically it could make a difference!

Yes, when I loosen the cock screw a turn  it seems to free up. 

Could I put a piece of tin foil or something under the balance cock or something? 

[RichardHarris123]

Foil should be fine.

[nevenbekriev]

Hi Lee,

If the diameter of the enstones is correct and they are placed with the flat surface towards the pivots, the free play will not change, no mater if the stones are thicker or thinner. If the stones are smaller in diameter, they may not rest on the ‘nest’ in the setting and may lay directly on the hole stones, thus reducing the free play. The same may happen if the stones are placed with rounded surfaces towards the pivots.

You must check the free play of the balance – it should be the same as of the lever or escape wheel for example. Just slightly move the balance wheel up/down with tweezers and observe the free play. You should look at the distance between the hairspring collet and the cock, but not at the balance wheel itself. This distance must slightly change, showing there is healthy free play. What @Nucejoe advices – to untighten the screw of the balance cock – it not always leads to increasing the free play.

I will advice to do the free oscillations test – remove the lever, the balance in place, turn the balance wheel to 180 degr.  and release it to oscillate free. Count the oscillations to full stop – for a watch like this, they should be about 100 in horizontal positions. See this video – the oscillations count there is more than 200, just to see what I mean and how the oscillations must be count

Edited November 6, 2023 by nevenbekriev

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

What @Nucejoe advices – to untighten the screw of the balance cock – it not always leads to increasing the free play.

In theory it should , depends how tight the cock locating posts are, they may not free up on their own to give play.

2 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Foil should be fine.

I've seen folk on YT use watch paper, sounds like a bad idea to me. I like the fact that with cheap or good quality foil you have different thicknesses. Never tried it myself and probably frowned upon but without the use of a jacot to trim the pivots it seems like a reasonable bodgified fix. 

[lee1979]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

If the diameter of the enstones is correct and they are placed with the flat surface towards the pivots, the free play will not change, no mater if the stones are thicker or thinner. If the stones are smaller in diameter, they may not rest on the ‘nest’ in the setting and may lay directly on the hole stones, thus reducing the free play. The same may happen if the stones are placed with rounded surfaces towards the pivots.

 

Thanks for this. The end stones I was using are very slightly smaller in diameter than the original ones I lost. I think they are not so small that then can drop below the lip of the chaton "nest"), but the ones I will try next are a little bigger and certainly that shouldn't be a problem then. The end stones are certainly the correct way up (flat site inside the chaton).

I will try the free oscillations test when I get it all back together.

Thanks

Lee

 

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

PIvot end wouldn't know thick or thin end stones apart.

Then stones don't matter other then if they're not there.

2 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

You must check the free play of the balance

No that's a silly idea we Don't worry about things like this we put shims under everything that will fix everything we don't believe in observation or diagnostics none of that flies here. Shim first ask questions later.

A lot of times things are misleading. Plus typically shimming is found in poorly manufactured watches if the watch was working before it should be working again. If the balance is not oscillating observation is needed as to why it's not oscillating. The new observation is for everything including the hairspring often times people bend their hairspring removing the balance wheel from the watch and if they hairspring is just touching the arms for instance that is an issue. In addition to all the other things listed above could be an issue from the other people. Watch repair is all about observation and diagnostics. Or it's about shimming and cleaning fixes everything.

 

 

[RichardHarris123]

I think you misunderstood @JohnR725. I for one know that shimming isn't the answer and checking for end/side shake is of importance but using a shim as a temporary measure may be used in diagnosis.  For example, the balance doesn't run freely, once shimmed it does, probably end shake is the issue and needs to be addressed.  I am still an amateur with much to learn so correct me, if I am wrong. I amongst many value your advice. 

[Nucejoe]

 Lee has shown excelent ability at fault finding. 

 

 

 

[JohnR725]

14 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I think you misunderstood

Haven't you noticed I do that a lot.

15 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

but using a shim as a temporary measure may be used in diagnosis

Perhaps you're misunderstanding or were both misunderstanding is it a temporary diagnostics or is a considered a permanent solution to some unknown problem? Because typically on these discussions shimming is recommended and that seems to be the end of the problem.

Perhaps with the problem for both of us would be let's look at the individuals who recommend shimming if shimming fixes the problem would you consider that the fix or are you using it as a tool for diagnostics?

Then I would still prefer people learn how to check for end shake and recognize what it is. Plus learn how to do just the general checking of does everything look right. Does the balance wheel oscillate if you gently shake the movement for instance as opposed to oh dear my watch doesn't run I didn't see this coming. Not that we don't all have that.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Shim first ask questions later.

I'm pretty sure that was Dirty Harry, or did he shoot first ask questions later ?

[nevenbekriev]

If one knows how to check endshake, which is so simle to do, then He will never put shime just to check if the endshake is insufitient. Furher more, it is good to understand if the endshake is correct or not, but not just to see if the watch works with the shime.

And yes, my experience with guding newbies is that the most common reason for low amplitude is that they have done something wrong to the hairspring, especially if it is Breguet hairspring. 

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

In theory it should , depends how tight the cock locating posts are, they may not free up on their own to give play.

If, for example, the locating posts don't hold tight, then the cock itself is usually heavy enough to press the pivots and cause the balance to stop rotating, if the screw is not tightened.

Edited November 6, 2023 by nevenbekriev

[Nucejoe]

19 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

 let's look at the individuals who recommend shimming if shimming fixes the problem would you consider that the fix or are you using it as a tool for diagnostics?

 

8 hours ago, lee1979 said:

stone Putting pressure on the pivot? 

 

7 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 As a test, Loosen  cock screw to release pressure on pivot.

Rgds

Edited November 6, 2023 by Nucejoe

[Neverenoughwatches]

31 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I think you misunderstood @JohnR725. I for one know that shimming isn't the answer and checking for end/side shake is of importance but using a shim as a temporary measure may be used in diagnosis.  For example, the balance doesn't run freely, once shimmed it does, probably end shake is the issue and needs to be addressed.  I am still an amateur with much to learn so correct me, if I am wrong. I amongst many value your advice. 

If we put this into perspective, we have Lee, a relative beginner like many of us here by the sound of it. He may or may not have the specialised tools to fix this in the proper professional way . Needing a jewelling tool ? a staking tool ? , a jacot ? or maybe just some parts that fit correctly. A shim under the balance cock may fix it, it doesn't have to be a permanent fix and its clearly reversable, nothing altered in the watch so no harm done. No its not proper its just a bodge. We get what John is saying, it might fix it but the actual fault is still unidentified,  will Lee learn anything from it ? A bit maybe as long as he understands its not the actual solution , which I'm quite sure he does. The thing is to learn whats really going and why a watch behaves in certain manner, and a harmless bodge or two along the way can be forgiven . It can even teach us what not to do.   Yey so we're all winners

[Nucejoe]

19 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I'm pretty sure that was Dirty Harry, or did he shoot first ask questions later ?

Harry was practicing to qualify for US citizenship. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

If one knows how to check endshake, which is so simle to do, then He will never put shime just to check if the endshake is insufitient. Furher more, it is good to understand if the endshake is correct or not, but not just to see if the watch works with the shime.

And yes, my experience with guding newbies is that the most common reason for low amplitude is that they have done something wrong to the hairspring, especially if it is Breguet hairspring. 

If, for example, the locating posts don't hold tight, then the cock itself is usually heavy enough to press the pivots and cause the balance to stop rotating, if the screw is not tightened.

Haha how did i know you were going to say that Nev ? We can go on all night with this. Give the cock a tug with a bit of rodico . Btw i dont actually give a monkeys if that sounds rude

5 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Harry was practicing to qualify for US citizenship. 

Haha Joe really thats getting close to the knuckle mate.

[lee1979]

9 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

If we put this into perspective, we have Lee, a relative beginner like many of us here by the sound of it. He may or may not have the specialised tools to fix this in the proper professional way . Needing a jewelling tool ? a staking tool ? , a jacot ? or maybe just some parts that fit correctly. A shim under the balance cock may fix it, it doesn't have to be a permanent fix and its clearly reversable, nothing altered in the watch so no harm done. No its not proper its just a bodge. We get what John is saying, it might fix it but the actual fault is still unidentified,  will Lee learn anything from it ? A bit maybe as long as he understands its not the actual solution , which I'm quite sure he does. The thing is to learn whats really going and why a watch behaves in certain manner, and a harmless bodge or two along the way can be forgiven . It can even teach us what not to do.   Yey so we're all winners

The voice of reason! I appreciate all the help and advice. I am totally new to this. I had never even opened the back of a watch until a couple of weeks ago. 

I will try other "proper" solutions, but if the shim is the only option available to me (without getting into advanced techniques or buying expensive tools) and it gets the watch running I'd be pretty happy. If as a total beginner I manage to dismantle, clean, lubricate and rebuild a watch that wasn't running when I started, I'd consider that a win, and I'm certainly learning a lot, even if its just beginner stuff.

I have watched some videos on end shake, but sounds like I should probably revisit them!

Thanks all,

Lee

[nevenbekriev]

6 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Haha how did i know you were going to say that Nev ? We can go on all night with this.

I just clame, that in some cases the untightening of the screw leads to increasing the free play, in some cases to decreasing, and in rest of the cases doesn't change the free play. What will happen depends on many things, like if the fixating pins are straight or bent, if bent - in which direction, are there under the cock 'dots' made by punching with sharp punch for 'adjustng' the free play and so on.

[Nucejoe]

 I see I was neither clear to understand nor correctly explained everything in detail as you would John.

I am terribly sorry. 

Best regards

[Neverenoughwatches]

25 minutes ago, lee1979 said:

The voice of reason! I appreciate all the help and advice. I am totally new to this. I had never even opened the back of a watch until a couple of weeks ago. 

I will try other "proper" solutions, but if the shim is the only option available to me (without getting into advanced techniques or buying expensive tools) and it gets the watch running I'd be pretty happy. If as a total beginner I manage to dismantle, clean, lubricate and rebuild a watch that wasn't running when I started, I'd consider that a win, and I'm certainly learning a lot, even if its just beginner stuff.

I have watched some videos on end shake, but sounds like I should probably revisit them!

Thanks all,

Lee

Its great to learn and with this hobby there's  a great deal to learn, you can always revisit the watch and give it a proper seeing to when you've bankrupt yourself buying tools. Oh wow did i just give you a horology headbutt i do apologise Lee

29 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

are there under the cock 'dots' made by punching with sharp punch for 'adjustng' the free play and so on.

Lol just messin with you Nev.  Anyway under the cock dots, in the Uk thats a type of after dinner pudden known as 'spotted dick' . i shall jest no more, horologically known as gouging.

17 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 I see I was neither clear to understand nor correctly explained everything in detail as you would John.

I am terribly sorry. 

Best regards

Still Joe, the gun joke was funny kinda. 

[Nucejoe]

 Pivot is to protrude through the balance jewel hole, with pivot end .02cm away from end stone, ideally end shake ( pivot end - end stone) 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Nucejoe

[nevenbekriev]

11 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

See this video – the oscillations count there is more than 200, just to see what I mean and how the oscillations must be count

And I have forgotten to put the link...

Here is the video