Tissot 783, several questions

[Neverenoughwatches]

26 minutes ago, Knebo said:

I can literally see the wobble just by winding it half a turn (with screwdriver on the blench block). I don't have a mainspring winder so I'd have to buy another mainspring if I remove it (and this one is rather expensive). Sorry, you'll probably find that annoying if you are offering good advice and I'm not following it.

No completely understandable knebo. If you have the ratchet hole centered in something and can see deformation in the wheel as you turn it then that answers the problem.  Still very strange though, shame you cant measure the radius of the wheel at different points. Send it to me, its frustrating me

[Knebo]

21 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

You're not getting on our nerves, we like a good mystery.  Let us know how you get on with the new parts

Thanks! I certainly will let you know.

 

31 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

If you have the ratchet hole centered in something and can see deformation in the wheel as you turn it then that answers the problem.  Still very strange though, shame you cant measure the radius of the wheel at different points. Send it to me, its frustrating me

Ok, I will admit that I just put it on the bench block, holding the barrel down and turning the ratchet wheel by its screw. So I'm not necessarily centering the ratchet hole. It could still be the arbor (or its thread/screw) or, worst case, the barrel arbor holes.

I'll try again to measure the radius  

[Neverenoughwatches]

41 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Thanks! I certainly will let you know.

 

Ok, I will admit that I just put it on the bench block, holding the barrel down and turning the ratchet wheel by its screw. So I'm not necessarily centering the ratchet hole. It could still be the arbor (or its thread/screw) or, worst case, the barrel arbor holes.

I'll try again to measure the radius  

Just from the edge of the hole to the teeth

[Nucejoe]

 I suspect the hole you closed, still can be bushed on lathe or even jeweled, also in all likelihood there are multiple issues anyway.

Rgds

[Knebo]

23 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Just from the edge of the hole to the teeth

Yes, that's what I had tried. But very fiddly. Will try again.

Thanks for the encouraging smiley  

 

18 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 I suspect the hole you closed, still can be bushed on lathe or even jeweled, also in all likelihood there are multiple issues anyway.

Rgds

Thanks for weighing in. The problem was already there before I closed the hole. But you are right, I can't exclude the possibility that I damaged the barrel holes during opening and closing of the barrel for the mainspring change (before closing the hole).

[Neverenoughwatches]

51 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Thanks for the encouraging smiley  

That me, i used to have hair and eyebrows and ears and pupils etc, i never used to be red either.

[Knebo]

9 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

That me, i used to have hair and eyebrows and ears and pupils etc, i never used to be red either

And good god, you are tiny! Must be great, though, for inspecting watch movements and fault-finding.

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

That me, i used to have hair and eyebrows and ears and pupils etc, i never used to be red either.

You might laugh Rich,  its not easy chatting up women looking like that, I'll set my dog on you

1 minute ago, Knebo said:

And good god, you are tiny! Must be great, though, for inspecting watch movements and fault-finding.

I cant fix anything though the tools are far too heavy

[HectorLooi]

8 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It can only have come from the factory like this, just not possible for it to have deformed afterwards. 

Or if this is a Mumbai special, then anything is possible. 

[nevenbekriev]

The ratched wheel can be put in 4 different ways on the arbour, You must try all of them.

Edited November 2, 2023 by nevenbekriev

[Knebo]

UPDATE

I can now definitely confirm what nobody, including myself, could really believe. The ratchet wheel is NOT ROUND. 

I put it in my staking set, holding it perfectly centered with regard to its hole. Now look at the video/gif. I drew the red line into the video to make it more obvious. 

Looking from above makes it even clearer, but more difficult to film. 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 minutes ago, Knebo said:

UPDATE

I can now definitely confirm what nobody, including myself, could really believe. The ratchet wheel is NOT ROUND. 

I put it in my staking set, holding it perfectly centered with regard to its hole. Now look at the video/gif. I drew the red line into the video to make it more obvious. 

Looking from above makes it even clearer, but more difficult to film. 

 

Must have come from the factory like this.

17 minutes ago, Knebo said:

UPDATE

I can now definitely confirm what nobody, including myself, could really believe. The ratchet wheel is NOT ROUND. 

I put it in my staking set, holding it perfectly centered with regard to its hole. Now look at the video/gif. I drew the red line into the video to make it more obvious. 

Looking from above makes it even clearer, but more difficult to film. 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Knebo said:

The ratchet wheel is NOT ROUND. 

It is kind of, sort of an off round. Like white that isn't white its like an off white. Now which brave soul would like to live in my  head for a day

Edited November 2, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[nevenbekriev]

17 hours ago, Knebo said:

UPDATE

I can now definitely confirm what nobody, including myself, could really believe. The ratchet wheel is NOT ROUND. 

I put it in my staking set, holding it perfectly centered with regard to its hole. Now look at the video/gif. I drew the red line into the video to make it more obvious. 

Looking from above makes it even clearer, but more difficult to film. 

 

The wheel IS ROUND, but it's hole is out of center. But You video is not prooving it clearly, as the wheel is actually not centered by it's square hole. But, it is still pritty obvious that the hole is out of center, even without this video.

BUT, if the sqyare part of the arbour is cut out of arbour center too, this can compensate the wheel's hole out of center, if the wheel and the arbour are assembled/matched in the correct way

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 11/3/2023 at 3:32 PM, nevenbekriev said:

The wheel IS ROUND, but it's hole is out of center. But You video is not prooving it clearly, as the wheel is actually not centered by it's square hole. But, it is still pritty obvious that the hole is out of center, even without this video.

BUT, if the sqyare part of the arbour is cut out of arbour center too, this can compensate the wheel's hole out of center, if the wheel and the arbour are assembled/matched in the correct way

Very true nev good point, its possible that both the ratchet wheel hole and arbor square are not centered, but once matched up correctly the ratchet wheel may run true.

[Knebo]

On 11/3/2023 at 4:32 PM, nevenbekriev said:

The wheel IS ROUND, but it's hole is out of center. But You video is not prooving it clearly, as the wheel is actually not centered by it's square hole. But, it is still pritty obvious that the hole is out of center, even without this video.

BUT, if the sqyare part of the arbour is cut out of arbour center too, this can compensate the wheel's hole out of center, if the wheel and the arbour are assembled/matched in the correct way

That sounds possible and would be the solution to the mystery why on earth it was fine before my service (because I'm sure I'm not able to reshape a wheel or move it's center). 

Still pretty bizarre! Could it have come from Tissot like that?

But I'll try the four positions!

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Still pretty bizarre! Could it have come from Tissot like that?

It may have been a solution to fix a bad manufacturing batch of ratchet wheels or arbors

[Nucejoe]

4 hours ago, Knebo said:

Could it have come from Tissot like that?

Made in garage.

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 hours ago, Knebo said:

That sounds possible and would be the solution to the mystery why on earth it was fine before my service (because I'm sure I'm not able to reshape a wheel or move it's center). 

Still pretty bizarre! Could it have come from Tissot like that?

But I'll try the four positions!

Please let us know if Nev was right, its been bugging me since you posted the question

[Knebo]

On 11/3/2023 at 4:32 PM, nevenbekriev said:

The wheel IS ROUND, but it's hole is out of center. But You video is not prooving it clearly, as the wheel is actually not centered by it's square hole. But, it is still pritty obvious that the hole is out of center, even without this video.

BUT, if the sqyare part of the arbour is cut out of arbour center too, this can compensate the wheel's hole out of center, if the wheel and the arbour are assembled/matched in the correct way

 

18 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Very true nev good point, its possible that both the ratchet wheel hole and arbor square are not centered, but once matched up correctly the ratchet wheel may run true.

 

7 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Please let us know if Nev was right, its been bugging me since you posted the question

 

Ok, so... no. That's not it. Tried all four positions and it never runs true. I also couldn't see any off-centered-ness of the arbor square itself. 

I'll have the new ratchet and arbor towards the end of next week, I hope. 

[Knebo]

So.. good news!! 

New ratchet wheel arrived and everything works just fine. 

While it now definitively confirms where the problem was, we will probably never know how the ratchet wheel ended up with such a bizarre off-center hole. 

I'm also very happy that the hole-closing on the bridge and barrel arbor holes seemed to have worked well. Sure, I'll only know in a few years if the repair was long-lasting, but at least for now it doesn't seem to cause any increase in friction - quite the opposite: Amplitude is very high with nice, stable traces.

Here a picture at full wind and dial up:

 

And before you say anything, dear @JohnR725, here are pictures after 24h in dial up and vertical crown down positions:

Dial up at 24h:

Crown down at 24h:

[RichardHarris123]

I don't like mysteries, I  like answers but I'm pleased for you.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I don't like mysteries, I  like answers but I'm pleased for you.  

Just a wonky part Rich, a wonky part. Something I've always had bother with.

[Knebo]

Hello everyone, 

I can now report the my work on this watch is done. Apart from the regular movement service, the bizarre ratchet wheel and correcting the sideshake of the barrel, it took a lot of careful work to clean the dial and buffing the hands and hour markers. Also gave it a new crystal and some very light manual case polishing with Cape Cod cloths.

It is now going back to its owner, who's grandfather had bought it. 

I had some additional troubles with the automatic module, specifically the wear on the rotor bearing. While the rotor wasn't touching the movement when gently turned, it did rattle and touch when shaken a bit. I had to order three rotors until I finally got one that was in good enough shape. Thankfully not too expensive. 

Here are some pics of the final product:

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Knebo