Tissot 783, several questions

[Knebo]

4 hours ago, Knebo said:

Thanks a lot @JohnR725!

So... you personally... would you use 9504 or HP1300+Epilam in this particular case?

 

Edit: I just looked at the respective technical sheets of 9504 and HP1300 and I found interesting that the "adhesion/grip" is rated higher for HP1300 than for 9504. See screenshots below. OR is it a different scale for oils vs greases (apples and oranges)?

Just reading a bit more about "adhesion" and "viscosity". I guess both matter and of course 9504 has much greater viscosity. 

Still, I wonder how important "adhesion" is in our applications. 

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, Knebo said:

So... you personally... would you use 9504 or HP1300+Epilam in this particular case?

typically for me in high-pressure sliding or sometimes revolving applications I'm using the 9504.

9 hours ago, Knebo said:

dit: I just looked at the respective technical sheets of 9504 and HP1300 and I found interesting that the "adhesion/grip" is rated higher for HP1300 than for 9504. See screenshots below. OR is it a different scale for oils vs greases (apples and oranges)?

for some entertaining reading wired to look at the product catalog that's attached look at the pie charts. I think the pie charts are misleading and based on what we see the HP oil is better than 9504 which to be honest I find it impossible.

For instance the grip aspect let's look at an image

the image comes from the lubrication PDF attached below. So here's an example like perhaps a minute  wheel post. As the HP oil has excellent grip you should build will lubricate exactly as shown it should stay where it's supposed to be and why exactly do need epilam with all of that grip? If you are using grease no problem it's sticky it would stay there it would be fine but what happens you take your HP oil on a post with no epilam?

I was doing a lecture once taking pictures. Normally I would use a grease on a minute we'll post but I was following the recommendations so tiny bit of HP 1300 and exactly as shown in the pictures. Then I picked up my camera and went to take the picture I was frustrated because it no longer looked like the picture. My super grip oil because I wasn't using epilam ran down the post and was at the base.

by the way do you see a problem in this image what's that read at the base of each of the posts can be the HP oil because it has excellent grip according to the tech sheet doesn't grip mean that it stays wherever you put it what exactly does grip mean anyway obviously not what I think it does

 

it's the classic problem with lubrication in horology is the lack of decent technical meaningful documentation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

MoebiusProductCatalogEN.pdf Omega 8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousins.pdf

[Jon]

In modern automatic mechanisms and what I teach to my students, HP 1300 would be used on the pivots/arbors of reverser wheels, pawl winding wheels, and driving wheels in the auto mechanism. I teach how to service older movements such as Felsa 690 Bidydnators (which have what is known as 'pawl winding wheels') and ETA 1256 which want the servicer to use thinner lubricants. Lubricants have come a long way since then (1940/50's). The reason for using certain lubricants in certain areas in the gear train is a pretty hard and fast rule. Low speed/high torque, such as barrel arbors use a thicker grease, such as HP 1300, or even D5 as the viscosity is high, as you go down the train the viscosity gets lower, so if you have those lubricants, what would be used is HP 1000 on the centre wheel (second wheel)l, HP 500 on the third wheel (dependent on the size of the movement),  9010 on the fourth wheel (maybe 9020), escape wheel and caps use 9010. So high-speed/low-torque wheels use a lower viscosity. Hopefully one can see the reasoning behind this.

With the auto mechanism, the lubricant isn't going to affect amplitude as it would in the gear train, so longevity is what one is trying to achieve, so a thicker grease is used.  All modern movements use this method for good reason. HP 1300 has a viscosity of 1300 centistokes and 9504 and 9501 which is great for high friction work such as keyless work and chronograph mechanisms has a viscosity of 305 centistokes. To have that longevity a thicker grease is usually used, for the reason I have given. I know I have probably opened a can of worms here, but I do give reasons for which lubricant is used where, and why. If you ask 10 watchmakers which lubricants they use there will be at least fifteen answers! 

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/greases

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

Edited October 19, 2023 by Jon

[JohnR725]

28 minutes ago, Jon said:

HP 1300

 

have you ever read the fine print?  What fine print look at the bottom of the lubrication chart I have marked something for you

I really wish lubrication company is watch company A's would tell us why they do things?

29 minutes ago, Jon said:

escape wheel and caps use 9010. So high-speed/low-torque wheels use a lower viscosity. Hopefully one can see the reasoning behind this.

oh  thinking about watch companies here's one that's interesting I'm attaching a PDF and I'll snip out a few images like look at the lubrication choices there's only three of them.

so basically 9504 for the mystery grease I don't think it's a mystery I think you actually can purchase that it comes in tubes that are dreadfully expensive.

then the amusement especially for me  I don't like 9010 I think 9010 should only be used with epilam otherwise it has a habit of spreading. 9020 seems to stay put better. Although if you look at the chart on grip and all of that basically the 9010 9020 or identical except viscosity which also tells us the pie charts are wrong somewhere I saw the contact angle and their slightly different which is why 9020 stays in place and 9010 does not at least that's my guess

so universally across the planet for all in time and space 9010 is your balance jewel oil.. Except in my case where I use 9020  and what exactly is this company using

 

aas far as I know I've never lost amplitude by using 9020 on the balance pivots.. You have to go down to their smallest mechanical caliber before the go back to 9010 on the balance pivots.. Maybe it's a clerical mistake how can a Swiss company go against the narrative of using 9020 versus 9010 on the balance pivots totally insane..  Although not as insane as some of the stuff Seiko does with lubrication but I don't have time to find the images I need to run away right now

12p.pdf

[Jon]

17 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

have you ever read the fine print?  What fine print look at the bottom of the lubrication chart I have marked something for you

HP1300 is 9104, but on service manuals for modern watches, they rarely refer to it as 9104, and 9101 is HP 500 which I use on third wheels, but again most know it as HP 500. On smaller calibers, I use thinner lubricants as you do.

One of my tutors always swore by using 9020, as you said it is slightly thicker and stays put.

[Knebo]

Damn, I have a problem.

I thought I was done and the watch was running nicely with 300° amplitude, but when fully wound, it suddenly stops after a few minutes of running.

I managed to find the issue, but I'm a bit perplexed by it. Sorry in advance, I don't have good pictures at hand. But let me describe:

As I (manually) wind the watch, the ratchet wheel increasingly starts to move sideways, away from the crown wheel. So much so that the ratchet wheel teeth start get stuck on the barrel bridge (the picture below shows where). Ok, so I thought that the sideshake on the barrel bridge hole is too big. But it's quite minimal (for reference, it's much less than here: https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/25930-barrel-too-much-side-shake/). Furthermore, the ratchet wheel itself does not move up/down when I press down on it on its sides (toward its teeth). The barrel certainly has quite a bit (probably just too much) side shake, and the cause may also be the sideshake of the barrel (lid) itself -- I still have to check that. But I fail to understand how that could actually move the ratchet wheel so much sideways if the barrel bridge hole is (mostly) ok. Am I missing something?  Maybe the barrel bridge hole is relatively tight on most directions, but a bit oval (allowing the ratchet wheel to move, while not showing too obvious sideshake in other directions). 

Disclaimer/apology: I know that this post may leave you guessing/speculating and maybe frustrated by the lack precise information/pictures. Sorry about that. I only get about one evening per week to work on my watches and when I do, I just post with the info of where I left off...

Picture: teeth get stuck on the circled edge of the bride. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Knebo

[RichardHarris123]

It does sound like side shake on the barrel arbor, the torque of the spring is pulling the crown wheel over. 

[Knebo]

whohaaa, I'M SO DAMN CONFUSED NOW.

First, I was SO proud for myself tonight. I use my staking set for the first time to close holes. I reduced the size of the arbor hole in the barrel bridge as well as the bottom arbor hole in the barrel. With that, I successfully eliminated any significant sideshake. When touching the sides of the barrel, it has only minimal play. It won't touch the center wheel despite very tight clearance.  So I was absolutely delighted.

But then the shock. When reinstalling everything, the ratchet wheel still does that the same kind of move. First towards the crown wheel, then away from it until it touches and gets stuck on the opposite side on the bridge itself. Before installing the ratchet wheel, it seems pretty perfect. All wheels are spinning very nicely without any wobble.

As opposed to my earlier message above, the issue doesn't seem to be related to the amount of power /torque in the mainspring/barrel. It already occurs upon the first turn of the barrel. 

I just can't explain it. What could I possibly be missing?

Only one thing I noticed is making me think: when screwing in the big flat ratchet wheel screw, I noticed that the screw was not going down nice and evenly but seemed to tilt/wobble back and forth as it went down. That could indeed be the reason. But I really don't know how I could have damaged it -- it was fine before I started the service. Have you ever experienced that? 

 

Pictures:

As the ratchet wheel turns, it first moves very/too close to the crown wheel. 

Then it moves away. Crown wheel and also the clock are barely engaging. 

On the opposing side, the ratchet wheel teeth get stuck on the edge of the bridge. 

 

Edit: had the idea of putting on the ratchet on the barrel/arbor without the bridge to get a better look. 

It's astonishing, actually. The ratchet wheel is off center. I took the picture from exactly straight above and you can see (better in reality) that there is more distance to the edge of the barrel at the 3 o'clock position in the picture and much less in the 9 o'clock position. If you can't see it in the picture, I assure you it's true. 

From the side I cannot see a tilt with the naked eye/loupe. Seems straight. 

After seeing this I'm not sure I understand anything better than before. I've isolated the issue, but still not sure how this can be. Can't imagine the barrel arbor holes to be off center (both would have to be equally off center to allow for the arbor to be straight as it seems to be). 

I also can't imagine the ratchet wheel to be oval... 

And I don't understand how the arbor and it's screw could cause this. 

Well, good night for now. Almost 3am here, brain is shutting off. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Knebo

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, Knebo said:

whohaaa, I'M SO DAMN CONFUSED NOW.

First, I was SO proud for myself tonight. I use my staking set for the first time to close holes. I reduced the size of the arbor hole in the barrel bridge as well as the bottom arbor hole in the barrel. With that, I successfully eliminated any significant sideshake. When touching the sides of the barrel, it has only minimal play. It won't touch the center wheel despite very tight clearance.  So I was absolutely delighted.

But then the shock. When reinstalling everything, the ratchet wheel still does that the same kind of move. First towards the crown wheel, then away from it until it touches and gets stuck on the opposite side on the bridge itself. Before installing the ratchet wheel, it seems pretty perfect. All wheels are spinning very nicely without any wobble.

As opposed to my earlier message above, the issue doesn't seem to be related to the amount of power /torque in the mainspring/barrel. It already occurs upon the first turn of the barrel. 

I just can't explain it. What could I possibly be missing?

Only one thing I noticed is making me think: when screwing in the big flat ratchet wheel screw, I noticed that the screw was not going down nice and evenly but seemed to tilt/wobble back and forth as it went down. That could indeed be the reason. But I really don't know how I could have damaged it -- it was fine before I started the service. Have you ever experienced that? 

 

Pictures:

As the ratchet wheel turns, it first moves very/too close to the crown wheel. 

Then it moves away. Crown wheel and also the clock are barely engaging. 

On the opposing side, the ratchet wheel teeth get stuck on the edge of the bridge. 

 

Edit: had the idea of putting on the ratchet on the barrel/arbor without the bridge to get a better look. 

It's astonishing, actually. The ratchet wheel is off center. I took the picture from exactly straight above and you can see (better in reality) that there is more distance to the edge of the barrel at the 3 o'clock position in the picture and much less in the 9 o'clock position. If you can't see it in the picture, I assure you it's true. 

From the side I cannot see a tilt with the naked eye/loupe. Seems straight. 

After seeing this I'm not sure I understand anything better than before. I've isolated the issue, but still not sure how this can be. Can't imagine the barrel arbor holes to be off center (both would have to be equally off center to allow for the arbor to be straight as it seems to be). 

I also can't imagine the ratchet wheel to be oval... 

And I don't understand how the arbor and it's screw could cause this. 

Well, good night for now. Almost 3am here, brain is shutting off. 

I would take a good look at that ratchet screw and the thread in the arbor.

[Knebo]

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I would take a good look at that ratchet screw and the thread in the arbor.

The screw looks ok. But I can't look inside the arbor thread. 

[RichardHarris123]

What's the whole in the ratchet wheel like, is it central and true? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, Knebo said:

The screw looks ok. But I can't look inside the arbor thread. 

Does the ratchet wheel move around when you are screwing it down ?

4 hours ago, Knebo said:

The screw looks ok. But I can't look inside the arbor thread. 

The two circles in this picture are central to each other and to the ratchet screw. Compared to the barrel they are near as damn just a touch out top and bottom.  Now look at the ratchet wheel teeth inside the large circle, the shadowing on the left makes comparison a little difficult but there looks to a difference.  Point being we know that the teeth are not central to the barrel but the screw is. Dodgy ratchet wheel ?

Edited October 31, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[Knebo]

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Does the ratchet wheel move around when you are screwing it down ?

Hmm, yes maybe. I didn't really notice it, but now that you say it...

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The two circles in this picture are central to each other and to the ratchet screw. Compared to the barrel they are near as damn just a touch out top and bottom.  Now look at the ratchet wheel teeth inside the large circle, the shadowing on the left makes comparison a little difficult but there looks to a difference.  Point being we know that the teeth are not central to the barrel but the screw is. Dodgy ratchet wheel ?

Thank you for your effort with the circles! That's extremely helpful and confirms exactly what I observe. 

Just the conclusion puzzles me. This ratchet wheel was working fine when I got the watch. I doubt that a ratchet wheel can turn oval in the ultrasonic cleaner, hahah .

I'm thinking that maybe I damaged the barrel arbor when holding it with a pin vice. That could explain the wobble of the screw and MAYBE a certain off-centered-ness of the ratchet (despite being central in the barrel holes).

I'll try to get a new arbor, and maybe a next ratchet+screw (to be safe). 

[Razz]

check to make sure you don't have the ratchet wheel upside down. That notch sometimes goes down and rides on a stump that helps center it on the square arbor and rides a bit lower on some movements...

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, Knebo said:

Hmm, yes maybe. I didn't really notice it, but now that you say it...

Thank you for your effort with the circles! That's extremely helpful and confirms exactly what I observe. 

Just the conclusion puzzles me. This ratchet wheel was working fine when I got the watch. I doubt that a ratchet wheel can turn oval in the ultrasonic cleaner, hahah .

I'm thinking that maybe I damaged the barrel arbor when holding it with a pin vice. That could explain the wobble of the screw and MAYBE a certain off-centered-ness of the ratchet (despite being central in the barrel holes).

I'll try to get a new arbor, and maybe a next ratchet+screw (to be safe). 

Still doesn't make sense if the screw is central to barrel. I would check that with a pair of calipers and also the ratchet wheel just to make sure that isn't deformed. Take nothing for granted in watchmaking.

[JohnR725]

On 10/30/2023 at 6:10 PM, Knebo said:

After seeing this I'm not sure I understand anything better than before. I've isolated the issue, but still not sure how this can be. Can't imagine the barrel arbor holes to be off center (both would have to be equally off center to allow for the arbor to be straight as it seems to be). 

I also can't imagine the ratchet wheel to be oval... 

And I don't understand how the arbor and it's screw could cause this. 

Well, good night for now. Almost 3am here, brain is shutting off. 

One of the things that I always like to do with incoming watches his pre-timing. Often times problems will show up in an initial timing. Then unfortunately often times we just don't see things or we don't pay attention to things or well we just don't that unfortunately happens from time to time.

Then it also helps to take a break and then come back and reevaluate the situation with fresh eyes may be might see something that you're not seeing right now.

[Knebo]

11 hours ago, Razz said:

check to make sure you don't have the ratchet wheel upside down

Thanks but it's correct as it is. 

 

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

One of the things that I always like to do with incoming watches his pre-timing

I did and the issue wasn't there. I wound the watch and there was no resistance. Right now I can barely wind it at all. 

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then it also helps to take a break and then come back and reevaluate the situation with fresh eyes

True. I only get to work on my watches every couple of days, so I usually get a bit of distance. 

 

9 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Still doesn't make sense if the screw is central to barrel. I would check that with a pair of calipers and also the ratchet wheel just to make sure that isn't deformed. Take nothing for granted in watchmaking

Yeah, I'm also still confused. 

I took some more pictures. Could you do that magic again with the concentric circles? 

Frankly, I don't manage with my caliper to mesure this properly. 

However, I must say, with the bare eye, the ratchet wheel looks as if the hole wasn't in the middle. Ot would be the thing that explains everything perfectly, so I hope that's the problem. BUT how on earth does a ratchet wheel get deformed like that?

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, Knebo said:

Yeah, I'm also still confused. 

I took some more pictures. Could you do that magic again with the concentric circles? 

Frankly, I don't manage with my caliper to mesure this properly. 

However, I must say, with the bare eye, the ratchet wheel looks as if the hole wasn't in the middle. Ot would be the thing that explains everything perfectly, so I hope that's the problem. BUT how on earth does a ratchet wheel get deformed like that?

Hmm wierd. The 3 circles are central to each other. The small inner one is centered by skeg of E but it looks bang on the outer circle shows the difference in the wheel. How about removing the  mainspring so you can spin the arbor in the barrel with the ratchet wheel attached .

[Knebo]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hmm wierd. The 3 circles are central to each other. The small inner one is centered by skeg of E but it looks bang on the outer circle shows the difference in the wheel. How about removing the  mainspring so you can spin the arbor in the barrel with the ratchet wheel attached .

Thanks so much. 

But sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're writing. You agree that the wheel is not properly round, right? The two inner ones are concentric ti each other, but the outer circle is not. Is that what you're saying, too? 

[HectorLooi]

It's hard to determine whether the ratchet wheel is eccentric or not from a photo. There might be lens distortion or if the photo is taken a little off axis.

Do what @Neverenoughwatches said. Remove the mainspring, then reinstall the arbor and barrel cap. Put the barrel assembly back into the movement and check the meshing of the teeth.

This is so weird. I can't imagine how it's possible for the hole to drift off- center. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 hours ago, Knebo said:

Thanks so much. 

But sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're writing. You agree that the wheel is not properly round, right? The two inner ones are concentric ti each other, but the outer circle is not. Is that what you're saying, too? 

All the circles are concentric to each other, the outer circle shows that the ratchet wheel is not perfectly round to the hole . However i cant say for sure how accurate i have centered the first one even though the middle one looks to be ok. Mount the ratchet wheel to the arbor and barrel without the mainspring so it can spin by itself. You should be able to see any deformation. 

7 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

This is so weird. I can't imagine how it's possible for the hole to drift off- center. 

It can only have come from the factory like this, just not possible for it to have deformed afterwards. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[RichardHarris123]

It can't be an issue from the factory though, it was running and winding before. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

51 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

It can't be an issue from the factory though, it was running and winding before. 

I get that Rich but i was thinking it might have only just been clearing the side of the bridge. Maybe something has happened during dis and reassembly that has taken up that gap. So multiple issues, i really cant imagine the ratchet wheel has become deformed . We are all just guessing really until the shape of the ratchet wheel has been confirmed. 

51 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

It can't be an issue from the factory though, it was running and winding before. 

Ahhh we're all missing something, to add further to it was running and winding before. Maybe it was just clearing the bridge before but it hasn't just been dis and reassembled has it ? Something else must have been changed to cause this.  Knebo said that he was proud that he'd closed the arbor holes  in the mainplate and barrel bridge. Arbor hole positions shift ? Bent plate or bridge ?

Edited November 2, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[Knebo]

Thanks all for continuing to think about this!

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

but it hasn't just been dis and reassembled has it ? Something else must have been changed to cause this.  Knebo said that he was proud that he'd closed the arbor holes  in the mainplate and barrel bridge. Arbor hole positions shift ? Bent plate or bridge ?

The problem was there BEFORE I closed the holes with my staking set. That was an attempt to fix the problem (at that point, I though the excessive side-shake was the cause). Closing the holes didn't make it worse, but also didn't help.

Also, the barrel itself seems to move nice and round without any up/down wobble (when looking into the movement sideways where center wheel and barrel teeth are meshing). 

 

2 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

It can't be an issue from the factory though, it was running and winding before

True.

9 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I can't imagine how it's possible for the hole to drift off- center.

I agree.

 

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Mount the ratchet wheel to the arbor and barrel without the mainspring so it can spin by itself. You should be able to see any deformation. 

I can literally see the wobble just by winding it half a turn (with screwdriver on the blench block). I don't have a mainspring winder so I'd have to buy another mainspring if I remove it (and this one is rather expensive). Sorry, you'll probably find that annoying if you are offering good advice and I'm not following it.

 

To avoid getting on your nerves any further, I'll take my chances and get a new ratchet wheel + screw and arbor. I found a good deal on eBay. We'll be smarter afterwards.

[RichardHarris123]

You're not getting on our nerves, we like a good mystery.  Let us know how you get on with the new parts.