Seeking buying advice: Jacot tool

[VWatchie]

26 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

I would certainly have been ahead money-wise had I waited and gotten a good full set in the beginning...

Undoubtedly, but it is of course a matter of balance. For how long are we willing to wait for how much money? Not an easy question. Life is unfortunately short and the path to skill is endless so better get going with the means you have at hand than wait until it's too late.

[Knebo]

21 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Wooden box is newer style tools, black box the older style. The newer style has the advantage that the alignment of the headstock runner can be adjusted if needed. It's generally not needed, but if it is, you can do it. On the older tools there's no way to adjust

Thanks! The wisdom in this forum never ceases to amaze me.

 

15 hours ago, VWatchie said:

In case you do have unlimited resources, and I hope you and everyone else have, you can always place an order here  

The cost of new tools is the second thing that never ceases to amaze me (in comparison with the cost of used ones, particularly) 

 

My character challenge is that I'm perfectionist (as in, I want the best tool for the money I have) AND also impatient (can't wait indefinitely until something comes up). It's a tricky combination, hahaha

I'll spend a dozen hours searching all platforms (not only eBay, but also the local/national classifieds websites in nearby countries like Germany [kleinanzeigen.de], France [leboncoin.fr], Switzerland [anibis.ch, ricardo.ch], Austria [willhaben.at], Belgium [2ememain.be]...). On that note, I can really recommend the German and French links. A lot of good stuff to be found (if you know the words to search for)!

 

For that reason, in the end, I may go with this approach:

15 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Or, in the meantime, get a Jacot in good condition for little money (even without the centre wheel runner) and then resell it once a better option surfaces.

 

[Knebo]

Oh boy, I'm really cracking my head over this now 

I'm in between two offers. Both are the old style Steiner tools in the leathery box.

A) full set WITH the center wheel runner. Overall condition 8/10. Lanterns are 10/10; runners 8/10. It has a bow, but NO "PULLEY" mechanism.

B) small set WITHOUT center wheel runner. Overall condition 9/10. Lanterns are 9/10; runners 9/10 condition. HAS PULLEY mechanism instead of bow. And I think it has a very thin "self made" burnisher included (meaning, the previous owner took something like a steel rod and files/sanded it down). See image below. Or is this something else? Could it be a usable burnisher?

 

 

 

 

[HectorLooi]

Ok @Knebo, lets keep it real. You have just gotten into watchmaking. You don't need a Jacot tool. You'll end up breaking more pivots than improving them.

I have a Jacot tool but I hardly ever play with it.

My mentor does repivoting, cuts balance staffs, cuts wheels and pinions and he doesn't even own a Jacot tool. 

If you are buying it as a collector's item, a conversation piece, then go ahead. But a hobbyist would rarely need a Jacot tool. 

Perhaps the more senior members of WRT could jump in and advise you.

[Knebo]

3 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Ok @Knebo, lets keep it real. You have just gotten into watchmaking. You don't need a Jacot tool. You'll end up breaking more pivots than improving them.

I have a Jacot tool but I hardly ever play with it.

My mentor does repivoting, cuts balance staffs, cuts wheels and pinions and he doesn't even own a Jacot tool. 

If you are buying it as a collector's item, a conversation piece, then go ahead. But a hobbyist would rarely need a Jacot tool. 

Perhaps the more senior members of WRT could jump in and advise you.

Haha, ok ok. Thanks for the reality check. I actually appreciate it  -- and I must admit that I've wondered about this too. You are probably right..

I'm just very enthusiastic and the tool-addiction (more, more, more!) has hit me hard.

 

[nickelsilver]

I make a lot of staffs and do a lot of pivot work and there's no way I would be without a Jacot tool (as mentioned, I have a number of them). It's how pivots are finished at the factory, and by far the best and easiest way to get an excellent finish on a small diameter. While the old style are perfectly good, I would stick with the new style. The ability to tweek the alignment if needed is well worth it.

[rehajm]

2 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

You don't need a Jacot tool. You'll end up breaking more pivots than improving them.

Yikes- that’s a bit harsh. Nobody is born a watchmaker and as a fellow hobbyist I’ll say you have the luxury of pursuing what interests you- if you’re enthusiastic about it please enjoy!  There are clear benefits to amplitude and longevity of services if you acquire the skill…

…and speaking of tools you don’t need I would have delayed the one everyone is quick to acquire- mainspring winders. The packs with the spring in a lovely washer are quite inexpensive and given most of the watches I work on have worn out old style carbon steel springs I’m not certain I’ll live to see breakeven on the winding set…

…then again, the Vulcain on my bench is rebanking because the recommended spring size is discontinued so I went up ever so slightly …

[LittleWatchShop]

I am pretty sure my dad never used the Jacot (even though he had one). He had a retail business that depended on throughput (in order to send three kids to college). He replaced a lot of staffs, but back then replacement parts were plentiful and locally sourced (Houston, Tx). The tools I inherited did include an Elgin sapphire burnishing tool that appeared to be well used (the plastic caps were repaired multiple times it seems). So, he must have done some fine tuning.

At any rate, it is an interesting tool and I will continue to learn how to use it effectively.

[HectorLooi]

I know my advice sounded a bit harsh but for a beginner who hasn't developed the fine motor skills required for working on pivots as fine as 0.12mm yet, I think my advice is justified.

For the same reason, I don't advise beginners to do hairspring adjustments. The motor skills required for such jobs have to be developed over time.

The cost for a decent Steiner Jacot tool is around $600 at the moment. I think the money could be better spent elsewhere, like better lighting and a microscope. I would say that the microscope is the biggest game changer in watchmaking. It takes time adjusting to working with a microscope but I think the learning curve is not too steep and the gains far outweigh the inconvenience. 

And I think a microscope actually helps to develop fine motor skills. 

I think the reason why I don't use my Jacot tool much is because I find it difficult to work the Jacot under a microscope. 

And the tool addict in me is telling me to get a Jacot drum for my lathe and get another microscope with a swing arm. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by HectorLooi
Typo

[VWatchie]

On 10/10/2023 at 5:03 PM, nickelsilver said:

The newer style has the advantage that the alignment of the headstock runner can be adjusted if needed.

I'm not sure I get this. I've been looking at my "newer style" Steiner but can't quite figure out how and why the headstock runner would be adjusted.

[VWatchie]

I've read the posts regarding the do get or do not get a Jacot tool with great interest and I can both understand and agree with some of the arguments, but I would probably say that in the long run, a Jacot tool and learning how to use it is crucial to getting optimal results. Here's a happy example!

Yes, learning how to use a Jacot tool is a pretty big investment. It can be extremely frustrating at the beginning when the burnisher slips and you either destroy or damage the wheel arbor, but we are all beginners at some point, so the sooner we start, the faster we gain the necessary motor skills, experience and knowledge. In short, there is rarely much to be gained by waiting.

I would think there is complete consensus that we all feel that it is of the utmost importance to be thorough in the cleaning and pegging of all jewel holes, but if the wheel pivots are badly oxidized, rusted, scored, or deformed, there will still be friction in the wheel train and adversely affect the performance of the movement. Worthy of reflection is that assuming we are serious, we would never consider not replacing a cracked jewel. Similarly, we should not consider not fixing a wheel pivot that is not in perfect condition.

Still, I have to agree that there are a lot of other things to focus on before acquiring a Jacot tool (like getting a stereo microscope). In the short term and as a beginner, an option may be to completely replace a train wheel whose pivots are in poor condition with a brand new train wheel if available. You can also get quite far by making sure to be extremely thorough with the cleaning of the pivots. If they are not rusty, badly oxidized, scored, or deformed, it may be enough to polish the pivots with Eveflex.

I have to say I am amazed at how well Eveflex can clean. Eveflex can make a pivot look brand new. The disadvantage of Eveflex is that they have an abrasive effect and can if the polishing goes on for too long, make the pivot tapered. In this post, I have summarized my experiences with Eveflex. Important to note, however, is that Eveflex cannot in any way replace a Jacot tool when it comes to repairing a pivot.

To summarize. Yes, if the pivots are badly oxidized, rusty, scored, or deformed, we have to fix them with a Jacot tool.

Edited October 15, 2023 by VWatchie
Replaced the word "scratched" for "scored"

[nickelsilver]

6 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I'm not sure I get this. I've been looking at my "newer style" Steiner but can't quite figure out how and why the headstock runner would be adjusted.

If you look at the headstock end with the pulley and runner removed, you see a sort of V block in there. There are jack screws at each end, with holes around their head permitting a rod to be used to turn them. Tightening them pushes the block upwards, loosening (and then inserting the runner and firmly tightening its lock screw) pushes it down. The V block is slit along its length allowing it to flex, thus being able to move up or down in the round bore. This is for the vertical alignment. Then, a simple tool can be inserted to rotate that block in the bore, which gives the lateral adjustment. Some tools have a more obvious vertical adjustment (see pic), those dispose of the jack screws but the lateral alignment can still be done.

 

To check the alignment I just use a wheel with the shortest possible pivot to pivot length, and put it in the tool (check that the wheel is true!), and see how it looks compared to the tailstock runner face. The short arbor magnifies any error, and if it "looks" good in the tool, that's good enough.

 

One thing I have seen on many of these is the simple headstock runner is bent. To check that I put it in collet in the lathe, and check. I use a dial test indicator, but again, if it looks like it turns true just visually checking against the T rest or something, that's probably good enough. Truing it is simply a matter of bending it the right direction. I haven't broken one yet.

 

As to why Steiner moved to this design- I imagine it makes it easier to produce, as things are less dependent on getting the hole for the headstock runner absolutely perfectly placed. And it just nice to be able to adjust things if and when needed.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by nickelsilver

[Knebo]

On 10/14/2023 at 4:23 PM, nickelsilver said:

If you look at the headstock end with the pulley and runner removed, you see a sort of V block in there. There are jack screws at each end, with holes around their head permitting a rod to be used to turn them. Tightening them pushes the block upwards, loosening (and then inserting the runner and firmly tightening its lock screw) pushes it down. The V block is slit along its length allowing it to flex, thus being able to move up or down in the round bore. This is for the vertical alignment. Then, a simple tool can be inserted to rotate that block in the bore, which gives the lateral adjustment. Some tools have a more obvious vertical adjustment (see pic), those dispose of the jack screws but the lateral alignment can still be done.

 

To check the alignment I just use a wheel with the shortest possible pivot to pivot length, and put it in the tool (check that the wheel is true!), and see how it looks compared to the tailstock runner face. The short arbor magnifies any error, and if it "looks" good in the tool, that's good enough.

 

One thing I have seen on many of these is the simple headstock runner is bent. To check that I put it in collet in the lathe, and check. I use a dial test indicator, but again, if it looks like it turns true just visually checking against the T rest or something, that's probably good enough. Truing it is simply a matter of bending it the right direction. I haven't broken one yet.

 

As to why Steiner moved to this design- I imagine it makes it easier to produce, as things are less dependent on getting the hole for the headstock runner absolutely perfectly placed. And it just nice to be able to adjust things if and when needed.

 

 

Very interesting.

Funnily, this makes me want to buy the old version. I feel like there's less risk of any misalignment and me not managing to correct it. 

[Knebo]

I had resisted the jacot tool buying urge for a while now, but just came across a potentially good offer. 

I remember the brand "ECS" being mentioned in one breath with Steiner, as if they were the same or compatible with each other. But ao can't remember where I saw that. Can anyone confirm /enlighten me? 

Here is the tool and the logo:

[Knebo]

So, I have some news about the ECS jacot tool from a French watchmaker:

"This E.C.S tower is 2nd generation, certainly manufactured by Houriet & Cie in Tramelan (Switzerland) in the years 1940/1955. 
The company was bought in 1989 and became Horia Steiner Company.
See this link: https://www.horia.ch/fr/L-entreprise/Historique/Historique-HORIA-SA.html

E.C.S lathes are beautifully made pivoting lathes, identical in their use and precision to the latest generation Horia/Steiner lathes.  Another advantage is that they have the same spindle diameter and are therefore interchangeable."

[Knebo]

Sooo, after initially following @HectorLooi's advice and kinda abandoning this project and then following @VWatchie's advice of waiting patiently for a good deal on a complete set, my moment has come:

For an incredible 125 EUR, I managed to get a pristine (basically unused) "new style" Steiner set. It's the large set with the center wheel runner. In addition to two perfect lantern discs (hidden under the covers), a another perfect pair of spare runners were also included. 

The burnisher was not included, but after such a bargain on the tool, I treated myself to a new Bergeon burnisher. And a pair of retractable keyholders ;-). 

Now I need to practice. 

Edited March 3, 2024 by Knebo

[VWatchie]

5 hours ago, Knebo said:

For an incredible 125 EUR, I managed to get a pristine (basically unused) "new style" Steiner set.

Yes, that is incredible! I thought I had the record of paying merely $200, but obviously not  Congrats! z

BTW, if you don't get any use for the bow, drop me a PM!

[mbwatch]

On 10/9/2023 at 5:17 PM, nickelsilver said:

I haven't used the lanterns for finishing ends since last century.  But- they are handy for straightening pivots on 4th wheels and chronos! So all my Jacot tools have all their lanterns intact.

Sorry to resurrect an old one - @nickelsilver if a jacot tool can be acquired for cheap with bad lanterns, would you consider a Levin pivot polisher tool to be an adequate substitute for the jacot lanterns (absent a full watchmaker's lathe) or does the Levin tool serve a different purpose?

[Malocchio]

5 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Sorry to resurrect an old one - @nickelsilver if a jacot tool can be acquired for cheap with bad lanterns, would you consider a Levin pivot polisher tool to be an adequate substitute for the jacot lanterns (absent a full watchmaker's lathe) or does the Levin tool serve a different purpose?

https://www.horia.ch/en/Products/Pivotinglathe/Accessories/Lantern-N-1-N-4.html

If it's a Steiner you might be able to change the lantern. Not cheap though. I ordered one and it was a perfect fit for my old Steiner. 

[VWatchie]

4 hours ago, Malocchio said:

https://www.horia.ch/en/Products/Pivotinglathe/Accessories/Lantern-N-1-N-4.html

If it's a Steiner you might be able to change the lantern. Not cheap though. I ordered one and it was a perfect fit for my old Steiner. 

Thanks for the tip!

I’ve been pondering for a long time how to get my hands on a runner for slightly larger centre wheels. The largest bed I currently have is 0.76mm, and it’s more often too small than one might think. Unfortunately, the prices are so high that they are hardly within reach for a mere enthusiast. 490 CHF for a single runner. That is around 700 CHF (770 USD) once taxes, import fees, and shipping are included.

If anyone happens to have a runner for centre wheels "lying around" please feel free to send me a private message.

Edited January 10 by VWatchie

[nickelsilver]

4 hours ago, Malocchio said:

https://www.horia.ch/en/Products/Pivotinglathe/Accessories/Lantern-N-1-N-4.html

If it's a Steiner you might be able to change the lantern. Not cheap though. I ordered one and it was a perfect fit for my old Steiner. 

Yes, you can get spares from Horia. For the beds, in the small sizes, they want you to send the tool so they can finish grind them to match. In the larger sizes it's not necessary, nor really for the lanterns.

 

10 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Sorry to resurrect an old one - @nickelsilver if a jacot tool can be acquired for cheap with bad lanterns, would you consider a Levin pivot polisher tool to be an adequate substitute for the jacot lanterns (absent a full watchmaker's lathe) or does the Levin tool serve a different purpose?

I know the little Levin tool you're talking about, but never really used one. But it should work just fine. I haven't used lanterns in years on the Jacot (I do use one on the turns for drilling tricky wheels), as I just find it faster and easier to use the lathe. But minus a lathe, they are a must.

[Malocchio]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Unfortunately, the prices are so high that they are hardly within reach for a mere enthusiast.

Even their shipping was pretty expensive. I don't remember how much but for an order the size of a matchbox (I got the fork thingy too) they only had one shipping option, a costly one. Better still than having no spares available.

[praezis]

8 minutes ago, Malocchio said:

Even their shipping was pretty expensive.

All swiss companies do what we here don‘t dare to charge: the cost for handling, invoice making and customs paperwork. This can reach SFr 50…60 no matter what the item itself costs. 

@nickelsilver

You mentioned bending 4th wheel and chrono pivots in the lantern. Just curious, how exactly? 
I clamp those pivots in a collet #3 and use the rest as a pointer. Works fast and easy.

Frank

[nickelsilver]

17 minutes ago, praezis said:

 

@nickelsilver

You mentioned bending 4th wheel and chrono pivots in the lantern. Just curious, how exactly? 
I clamp those pivots in a collet #3 and use the rest as a pointer. Works fast and easy.

Frank

I like to use very hot tweezers to redress the pivot, so having it stick out of a lantern provides plenty of support, and I can still get at it with my thick nickel/brass boys, or the classic #8. I have done it your way too, if the bend isn't too great.

[mbwatch]

7 hours ago, Malocchio said:

If it's a Steiner you might be able to change the lantern. Not cheap though. I ordered one and it was a perfect fit for my old Steiner. 

Thanks - I was aware of this probably from farther up this thread. I've been watching for a Steiner but in poor condition they seem to be about twice the price of other makes (probably because parts are replaceable) and the parts cost is so high. As usual, I am first eliminating cheap options for a tool I might not use more than 5 times a year.

3 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I know the little Levin tool you're talking about, but never really used one. But it should work just fine. I haven't used lanterns in years on the Jacot (I do use one on the turns for drilling tricky wheels), as I just find it faster and easier to use the lathe. But minus a lathe, they are a must.

Thanks for your input. I have seen JD Richard demonstrate his Levin polisher a couple of times and it seems easy enough to use. I am still planning to search for good condition Steiner.