Fake Cartier?!?

[Waggy]

So something is telling me this may not be 100% genuine - (heavily sarcastic voice)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/386132585938?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=scth-jkes6g&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=WLDexrgWSNe&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

[Kalanag]

Movement is marked „unadjusted“ 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Kalanag

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Waggy said:

So something is telling me this may not be 100% genuine - (heavily sarcastic voice)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/386132585938?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=scth-jkes6g&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=WLDexrgWSNe&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

I thought Cartier signed one of the numerals as well  ? Anyway that movement is pretty darn rough

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I thought Cartier signed one of the numerals as well  ? Anyway that movement is pretty darn rough

No its pretty all darn rough. The tanks I've  ever looked had the backs screwed down.

[oldhippy]

That is a fake. 

[316lad]

Cartier is my thing. - well one of my things anyway.

You're okay with that.

1970's movement - Cartier has been fairly nomadic over the years with who they commissioned to supply their movements.

That's a 1970's women's tank movement made by - I want to say MST but not totally sure. These days they're all made by sellita but they've been round the houses over the years with different ebauche makers.

Couple of examples of the same movement below.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by 316lad

[nickelsilver]

While Cartier did use ETA 2512 movements in some watches, the only gold plated cases I know of are from the "Must" collection, which were gold plated silver. These have "Must de Cartier" on the dial, and usually the back, and usually say "argent" on the back, with a hallmark, and the word Vermeil, and "plaque' or 20 microns" or similar. I'm quite sure that they didn't do any other plated cases. Could be wrong, but this one looks fishy to me, poor engraving and dial quality too.

[316lad]

Also - check out this listing on Vintage Watch Outlet (good standing in Cartier community) and note the price - whiich I consider too high.

https://vintagewatchoutlet.com/products/cartier-tank-manual-wind-18k-gold-electroplated-vintage-1970s-mens-watch-23mm-1

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, 316lad said:

Cartier is my thing. - well one of my things anyway.

You're okay with that.

1970's movement - Cartier has been fairly nomadic over the years with who they commissioned to supply their movements.

That's a 1970's women's tank movement made by - I want to say MST but not totally sure. These days they're all made by sellita but they've been round the houses over the years with different ebauche makers.

Couple of examples of the same movement below.

 

 

A serial number on the caseback would be lovely to see.

[RichardHarris123]

Are you @316ladsaying that it's genuine ?

[oldhippy]

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

While Cartier did use ETA 2512 movements in some watches, the only gold plated cases I know of are from the "Must" collection, which were gold plated silver. These have "Must de Cartier" on the dial, and usually the back, and usually say "argent" on the back, with a hallmark, and the word Vermeil, and "plaque' or 20 microns" or similar. I'm quite sure that they didn't do any other plated cases. Could be wrong, but this one looks fishy to me, poor engraving and dial quality too.

Plated silver or gold doesn't have hallmarks. 

[316lad]

22 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Are you @316ladsaying that it's genuine ?

I'll stick my neck out here and say yes, I do.

The dial's a bit iffy but the rest is fine. Not a great era for Cartier - the early 70's - has to be said. Gold/ silver plating (why not solid), etc.

The OP expresses scepticism about the authenticity because one of the numerals isn't signed - usually the "7" as they are these days. Cartier didn't start doing that until about 2004. This is a '70's watch.

That's a bit like someone expressing the same doubt about a Rolex Sub from the '80's - because it doesn't have the laser etched crown on the crystal or the engraving and the serial number on the rehaut.

As I say - it was a low point for Cartier horologically - the early '70's, until they got their mojo back in the early '80's and started producing the iconic re-issue of the SS and gold Santos, etc, and then they were elevated back to where they belong; Watch as pure, beautiful jewellery. Interesting brand over the years.

 

Got a women's Santos on the bench at the moment - you can see the "7" hasn't the vertical Cartier - and this is from 1993.

Nice watch - has seen some abuse. Always tricky to gauge what the customer expects me to do  in terms of Resto. Probably best just to polish it up a bit - you can - the gold bezel IS solid Gold - as are the screws on the bracelet.

So, you see within 15/ 20 years of making the OP's ebay watch - Cartier had got their sh1t back together.

Still a bit of a rubbish movement though - ETA by this time.

Edited September 22, 2023 by 316lad

[rehajm]

I looked around a bit for a similar case. Anyone find another example of the 18k gold ‘electroplated’…I guess snap-back case, with crude edges in the corners…apparently from the 70s?

[316lad]

The edges aern't "Crude" they're time worn down.

Take a look at a slightly better example:

https://vintagewatchoutlet.com/products/cartier-tank-manual-wind-18k-gold-electroplated-vintage-1970s-mens-watch-23mm-1

 

[rehajm]

11 minutes ago, 316lad said:

The edges aern't "Crude" they're time worn down.

Take a look at a slightly better example:

https://vintagewatchoutlet.com/products/cartier-tank-manual-wind-18k-gold-electroplated-vintage-1970s-mens-watch-23mm-1

 

Where’s the photo of the back of that watch- or any Carrier tank with an ‘electroplated’ snap back case. I’ve never seen one like that before. If the watch in question is definitively from the 70s there should be pictures of others out there…

now I see the other photos, yes…

Edited September 22, 2023 by rehajm

[316lad]

5 minutes ago, rehajm said:

Where’s the photo of the back of that watch?

Flick through the photos.

Rough old thing isn't it.

As I say - it was a low spot for Cartier.

You can see the concept though.

Edited September 22, 2023 by 316lad

[RichardHarris123]

I can only see one photo. 

[316lad]

4 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I can only see one photo. 

I'm sorry - I can't teach you how to surf the Internet.

[rehajm]

13 minutes ago, 316lad said:

 

The edges aern't "Crude" they're time worn down

 

well, yes. it is similar to the watch in better condition- but both are certainly more crude than the usual design….and worn down bad enough to be that rough but haven't worn through the plating, as has happened on the front corners?

Yowza- imma pass and let someone else enjoy the deal on this one…

[316lad]

14 minutes ago, rehajm said:

well, yes. it is similar to the watch in better condition- but both are certainly more crude than the usual design….and worn down bad enough to be that rough but haven't worn through the plating, as has happened on the front corners?

Yowza- imma pass and let someone else enjoy the deal on this one…

I think that's a good move but not necessarily because of your scpeticism about it being a fake.

It represents a "dud" period in Cartier horology. Collectors aern't interested in this stuff - neither does it particularly grab the eye - design or build-wise.

If the OP has thoughts about doing some Resto and selling it on - I'd pitch my bid at no more than £500 - though I suspect it will go for far more than that. But that doesn't make it validated.

I adore Cartier - but I wouldn't bother with it - it's representational of dark days - Quartz Crisis was blowing a Hooley, nobody knew what to do, marketing people flapping about, etc. It has nothing to mitigate it's "cheapness" and oppotunism in a dynamically changing Swiss watchmaking industry in crisis.

And Cheap - was never a Cartier selling point anyway.

It would be a pass from me too.

Edited September 22, 2023 by 316lad

[RichardHarris123]

14 minutes ago, 316lad said:

I'm sorry - I can't teach you how to surf the Internet.

I was willing to listen to your opinion because I have read that Cartier produced some pretty average watches in the past.  But please don't question my intelligence, the link you provided only had on photo. 

[316lad]

Just now, RichardHarris123 said:

I was willing to listen to your opinion because I have read that Cartier produced some pretty average watches in the past.  But please don't question my intelligence, the link you provided only had on photo. 

I'm so sorry if you thought I was - I was questioning my own ability to teach with my own limited intelligence.

[rehajm]

…and to clarify, I wasn’t questioning anyone here either. I’m hunting for a tank, an old one, and was educated by second and third gen watch shop owners on what to look for. Clearly this one misses a lot of the usual Cartier boxes…

[Neverenoughwatches]

36 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Are you @316ladsaying that it's genuine ?

The question is what is genuine?  Cartier is essentially known for designing and making jewellery so Cartier didn't make the movement. Cartier cases have serial numbers, there is no serial number so they didn't make the case, and their cases are held together by screws. If they employed another company to make the case , did someone else also make the dial. At best Cartier commissioned someone to make it, so its not really Cartier. There are a few examples on ebay the same as this, not sure if we can use that as evidence for it not to be fake unless we are suggesting only one fake has been made. Surely the Cartier tank is in the top list for most copied and faked watch of all time. Understandably i cant figure out why a world renowned Jeweller would put their name to this.

 

1 hour ago, rehajm said:

Where’s the photo of the back of that watch- or any Carrier tank with an ‘electroplated’ snap back case. I’ve never seen one like that before. If the watch in question is definitively from the 70s there should be pictures of others out there…

now I see the other photos, yes…

 

[RichardHarris123]

59 minutes ago, 316lad said:

I'm so sorry if you thought I was - I was questioning my own ability to teach with my own limited intelligence.

This is a friendly site, every one pitches in and helps each other.  The advanced members must sometimes roll their eyes at the questions we amateurs ask but they do their best. 

I have not come across such a arrogant member as yourself on here before and hopefully I won't do again.  

[VWatchie]

3 hours ago, 316lad said:

Still a bit of a rubbish movement though - ETA by this time.

Rubbish in what way? Not questioning you, just being curious!