Cleaning and removal of jewels

[arron]

Good morning,

I'm working on a Vantage wristwatch.  The only numbers on the movement that i see are ST 92.  I've mostly been working on old pocketwatches and thus have not encountered this type of jewel settings.  Am i suppose to take the cap jewel out of that setting.  Am i supposed to take the hole jewel out of the base plate.  Or do i clean them where they currently are?  if the jewel in the base plate stays there, do i run it through the watch cleaning machine without the cap jewel setting screwed down?

On the shock setting, do i take the cap jewel out and leave the hole jewel in, with the shock spring back in place, while cleaning in the watch cleaning machine.  I couldn't find much helpful info with google, but if you know of a helpful link, i'd be much obliged.  Thank you.  Arron.

[Nucejoe]

 The shock system is Kif Trio, turn the spring to remove it as you want access to the hole jewel as well, to check , clean and peg it.

Release the power through the click, remove the cock- balance assembly, remove the fork, you might want to put some penertaing oil on all screws specially the small ones.

Clean means absolutely clean, clean with brush plus ultrasonic plus any other means you know, peg the pivots, pallets, jewels and pinions. 

When tearing the movement apart, take pictures as you go.

One cap stone plate has obviously got loose.

Rgds

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Nucejoe

[rehajm]

Where’s your detent?

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, arron said:

ST 92

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Standard_Time_92

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, arron said:

Good morning,

I'm working on a Vantage wristwatch.  The only numbers on the movement that i see are ST 92.  I've mostly been working on old pocketwatches and thus have not encountered this type of jewel settings.  Am i suppose to take the cap jewel out of that setting.  Am i supposed to take the hole jewel out of the base plate.  Or do i clean them where they currently are?  if the jewel in the base plate stays there, do i run it through the watch cleaning machine without the cap jewel setting screwed down?

On the shock setting, do i take the cap jewel out and leave the hole jewel in, with the shock spring back in place, while cleaning in the watch cleaning machine.  I couldn't find much helpful info with google, but if you know of a helpful link, i'd be much obliged.  Thank you.  Arron.

The two parts that you have indicated are end piece jewels. These act like  capstones over the holed jewels underneath. Remove and clean separately from the plate. I'm assuming the one ringed is from the watchmaker's side. The shock setting for the balance  as joes has said uses a kif design and should be taken apart and cleaned.

2 hours ago, arron said:

Good morning,

I'm working on a Vantage wristwatch.  The only numbers on the movement that i see are ST 92.  I've mostly been working on old pocketwatches and thus have not encountered this type of jewel settings.  Am i suppose to take the cap jewel out of that setting.  Am i supposed to take the hole jewel out of the base plate.  Or do i clean them where they currently are?  if the jewel in the base plate stays there, do i run it through the watch cleaning machine without the cap jewel setting screwed down?

On the shock setting, do i take the cap jewel out and leave the hole jewel in, with the shock spring back in place, while cleaning in the watch cleaning machine.  I couldn't find much helpful info with google, but if you know of a helpful link, i'd be much obliged.  Thank you.  Arron.

Something is broken , can you see where ?

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Something is broken , can you see where ?

Can anyone answer that question? What price do you get?

[arron]

All those replies are very helpful.  i would like to seek clarification on the jewels.  the jewel in the oval is the cap stone.  am i suppose to remove that jewel from the small plate it is in or just clean both pieces together. 

the jewel in the rectangle is the hole jewel.  do i need to push that jewel out or just clean it in place.  if it stays in place do i need to re-install the cap stone plate before running it through the machine--do i need to worry that it will fall out otherwise.

 

I had not noticed that broken spring.  At some point in the day i did notice what's on the attached picture, but because i have at least four disassembled watches on my bench i didn't know where it came from--i thought it was a complete lever from one of the setting works.  Well, now i know.  Good thing i have an identical Vantage watch so i've got a spare part.

 

 

John, thanks for the reminder to check that database.  i know it's there but i seldom remember that it's there.  Arron.

[RichardHarris123]

1 hour ago, arron said:

All those replies are very helpful.  i would like to seek clarification on the jewels.  the jewel in the oval is the cap stone.  am i suppose to remove that jewel from the small plate it is in or just clean both pieces together. 

the jewel in the rectangle is the hole jewel.  do i need to push that jewel out or just clean it in place.  if it stays in place do i need to re-install the cap stone plate before running it through the machine--do i need to worry that it will fall out otherwise.

 

I had not noticed that broken spring.  At some point in the day i did notice what's on the attached picture, but because i have at least four disassembled watches on my bench i didn't know where it came from--i thought it was a complete lever from one of the setting works.  Well, now i know.  Good thing i have an identical Vantage watch so i've got a spare part.

 

 

John, thanks for the reminder to check that database.  i know it's there but i seldom remember that it's there.  Arron.

Yes, the jewel in the removable plate is the cap jewel.  Do not remove the jewel, clean both together.  You can clean it by hand using your solution and a paint brush.  If you are working on more than one watch, keep the parts separated. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, arron said:

All those replies are very helpful.  i would like to seek clarification on the jewels.  the jewel in the oval is the cap stone.  am i suppose to remove that jewel from the small plate it is in or just clean both pieces together. 

the jewel in the rectangle is the hole jewel.  do i need to push that jewel out or just clean it in place.  if it stays in place do i need to re-install the cap stone plate before running it through the machine--do i need to worry that it will fall out otherwise.

 

I had not noticed that broken spring.  At some point in the day i did notice what's on the attached picture, but because i have at least four disassembled watches on my bench i didn't know where it came from--i thought it was a complete lever from one of the setting works.  Well, now i know.  Good thing i have an identical Vantage watch so i've got a spare part.

 

 

John, thanks for the reminder to check that database.  i know it's there but i seldom remember that it's there.  Arron.

Hi arron, the capstone jewels in the endpieces should not be removed. Without a jewelling tool would not be easy besides. I clean them separately and reinstall them during reassembly. 

9 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Can anyone answer that question? What price do you get?

 

9 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Can anyone answer that question? What price do you get?

Well spotted watchie, i seem to think rehajm also had it. You can split the winnings of a balance staff of your choosing .

[VWatchie]

While on the topic here's a useful post and thread:

 

[oldhippy]

There is no need to remove that jewel in the small plate. If you have a good cleaning machine there is no need to remove shock systems. How ever  if you are cleaning by hand then it is a must to take the shock systems apart. 

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

If you have a good cleaning machine there is no need to remove shock systems.

What would be "a good cleaning machine"? The only argument I previously heard for not taking the shock systems apart when cleaning in a cleaning machine was to protect the hairspring and staff pivots from damage/wear and then clean the chatons and cap jewels separately. However, I was later told by or read a post by @nickelsilver that there were no risks in removing the chatons and cap jewels before putting them into the cleaning machine. And, that's exactly what I have been doing since and never had a single problem with damage/wear. Quite the contrary, it seems to be an efficient method for getting them really clean. 

I find it hard to believe that cleaning shock systems in situ in a cleaning machine will be as efficient as taking them apart before going into the cleaning machine, but I'm open and interested in hearing more about this!

[mikepilk]

I do the same as you @VWatchie with the balance installed and chatons and cap jewels separate. 

I was always surprised in Marks videos on WRC that he didn't remove the jewels, and only after the cleaning machine did he remove, clean, and oil the cap jewels.  It's not the cleaning of the cap jewels I'd be worried about (as I always do a final check and clean by hand if necessary), but I'd be worried that the balance pivots would not get a full clean. 

[VWatchie]

@mikepilk, I could have written that exact same post myself

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

What would be "a good cleaning machine"? The only argument I previously heard for not taking the shock systems apart when cleaning in a cleaning machine was to protect the hairspring and staff pivots from damage/wear and then clean the chatons and cap jewels separately. However, I was later told by or read a post by @nickelsilver that there were no risks in removing the chatons and cap jewels before putting them into the cleaning machine. And, that's exactly what I have been doing since and never had a single problem with damage/wear. Quite the contrary, it seems to be an efficient method for getting them really clean. 

I find it hard to believe that cleaning shock systems in situ in a cleaning machine will be as efficient as taking them apart before going into the cleaning machine, but I'm open and interested in hearing more about this!

I'm the same watchie.  I think the more surfaces that are exposed the better the cleaning method is. If the shock assembly is intact there are edges and joints that cant be reached and flushed out throughly I suppose it all depends how good your cleaning machine is, it cant take anything apart though 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

What would be "a good cleaning machine"?

A good cleaning machine would be one that you do not have to disassemble some jewels like American pocket watch Jewels you can keep them together. Which is rather nice because usually the screws are all stripped and that would be a pain to deal with. On the other hand if you're dealing with something modern that has Incabloc even with a nice cleaning machine I would still take them out. Then you can put the balance wheel with its bridge back on the main plate without the jewels and the balance pivots are protected Even without the jewels. Especially good with etachron systems Where it's inconvenient to remove the balance from the bridge anyway.

So you want an outstanding state-of-the-art modern cleaning machine. With unfortunately a undesirable price. Uses vacuum to move the fluids around and it keeps the chamber under a vacuum during the cleaning process. This means all the little bubbles of air that's trapped like between and stones is pulled away. Two separate ultrasonic frequencies very very nice. Just really expensive fortunately I didn't have to buy it as it's where I work we have one and yes it does do an outstanding job of cleaning.

https://youtu.be/Wcc_Bk7DO4k?si=nX65yriRuLFPxqdR

But that wasn't really the answer you are seeking was it? The real question would be able with an ultrasonic watch cleaning machine how far will fluids penetrate if you have and stones? Some of those are actually designed for cleaning but most are not. If the lubrication is organic then they basically still have to come apart. Or even with the fancy machine up above if you end up with a metal fragment no I don't know how it got in their but there was a metal fragment once on a balance jewel assembly I had to disassemble it is no way a cleaning machine can get that out.

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

 How can a jewel under cap stone be checked?  where there is a cap stone, it must be removed to see the hole jewel.

 A 48hrs soak in CocaCola wont cost anything and you'd be amazed with how easy screws unscrew its specially helpful with little screws.

[oldhippy]

I have had many watch cleaning machines. I must say this L&R VARI-MATIC WATCH CLEANING MACHINE was the best when it came to cleaning have a built in ultrasonic in the cleaner was a big plus and it was automatic. They are very old now but I wish I still had it.

[JohnR725]

43 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

I have had many watch cleaning machines. I must say this L&R VARI-MATIC WATCH CLEANING MACHINE was the best when it came to cleaning have a built in ultrasonic in the cleaner was a big plus and it was automatic. They are very old now but I wish I still had it.

When I was in school that was one of the cleaning machines they had. Then yes I would agree this is definitely an outstanding cleaning machine. But the reference to old is there anything really old In watch repair? The reason I make the reference to old is if you do a search for L&R VARI-MATIC  You'll find references to people restoring of them is a complete user service manual out there there's YouTube videos. So they may be old but there's still in use. Although I do find it quite fascinating that the hydraulic system is still working after all these years or the ultrasonic for that matter. My understanding is the ultrasonic transducer gets unhappy if you don't keep the fluid level up high enough and you risk Burning out your transducer.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 How can a jewel under cap stone be checked?  where there is a cap stone, it must be removed to see the hole jewel.

 A 48hrs soak in CocaCola wont cost anything and you'd be amazed with how easy screws unscrew its specially helpful with little screws.

Do you receive any commission for endorsing their product Joe.  Any difference in the results between full fat or skimmed, flat or fizzy ?