Capstone Cleaning Chemical or Physical?

[DrHWO]

Hi team. Probably a numpty question. So far my capstone cleaning started off with IPA soaks, moved on to IPA in ultrasound before arriving at my current endpoint which is purely mechanical cleaning. I place the capstone onto the surface of a Bergeon 12mm leather strop and then trap it from above with a second 6mm Bergeon leather strop. With gentle pressure rub the 2 surfaces together  for a few seconds. Microscopic examination reveals the flat capstone surface to be clear of crap (sorry to use medical terminology) and very shiny . Question is , is mechanical cleaning enough or should I really be doing both. I haven't been doing this long enough yet to know what medium or long term implications my method has, so any sage advice would be welcome. The reason I moved away from IPA was 1. When used alone the capstone surface was almost always still covered in muck 2. When used with US, it didn't look any better and 3. The only times I've lost capstones is when I've been using IPA (although this is likely crap technique).

[Nucejoe]

Both chemical and mechanical and simultaneously.

I use cardborad instead of leather and spread some lighter fluid on the cardboard " trap " the capstone with my thumb and rub.

Once the stone surface shines, I give it a rinse as  tiny bits of cardboard/ leather are inevitably  aggreagated around the circumference of capstone. 

Even IPA leaves little residue on the capstone which wont bother the new lubricants.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, DrHWO said:

Hi team. Probably a numpty question. So far my capstone cleaning started off with IPA soaks, moved on to IPA in ultrasound before arriving at my current endpoint which is purely mechanical cleaning. I place the capstone onto the surface of a Bergeon 12mm leather strop and then trap it from above with a second 6mm Bergeon leather strop. With gentle pressure rub the 2 surfaces together  for a few seconds. Microscopic examination reveals the flat capstone surface to be clear of crap (sorry to use medical terminology) and very shiny . Question is , is mechanical cleaning enough or should I really be doing both. I haven't been doing this long enough yet to know what medium or long term implications my method has, so any sage advice would be welcome. The reason I moved away from IPA was 1. When used alone the capstone surface was almost always still covered in muck 2. When used with US, it didn't look any better and 3. The only times I've lost capstones is when I've been using IPA (although this is likely crap technique).

I've been using almost from my start a similar method. I didnt like the ipa clean at all and the risk of handling wet cap stones is too high. I started by rubbing the flat side on watchpaper but that crinkles up too much so i just rub the flat side dry on a sticky note pad. I also just use my finger on the stone to rub then pick the stone off my pinky with tweezers. With complete confidence in this method i never lose a stone and it cleans it perfectly.

[Waggy]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

i just rub the flat side dry on a sticky note pad.

I use this exact same post-it-note method! I first steep in naphtha for about 5 mins to loosen any gunk, then with the flat surface of the jewel facing down against the paper I rub with my finger so that the flat surface is rubbing on the post-it-note paper to physically remove any gunk, then I let it fall off my finger into my container of naphtha another quick 5 min dip to remove anything my fingers or paper could have introduced. Now I let it dry with the flat surface up ready for oil.

Currently I oil first with a regular oiler and then put on the chateau (spelling??) but I'm now considering changing this and applying the chateau dry first and then oiling with an auto oiler... any thoughts?

[Neverenoughwatches]

55 minutes ago, Waggy said:

I use this exact same post-it-note method! I first steep in naphtha for about 5 mins to loosen any gunk, then with the flat surface of the jewel facing down against the paper I rub with my finger so that the flat surface is rubbing on the post-it-note paper to physically remove any gunk, then I let it fall off my finger into my container of naphtha another quick 5 min dip to remove anything my fingers or paper could have introduced. Now I let it dry with the flat surface up ready for oil.

Currently I oil first with a regular oiler and then put on the chateau (spelling??) but I'm now considering changing this and applying the chateau dry first and then oiling with an auto oiler... any thoughts?

I like to apply lube with a manual oiler i can then see exactly how good a job i have made. Jewel flat side up and held so the oiler doesn't lift it up . And that would be the chaton placed on top, the oil grabs the cap jewel and both parts can be turned over and placed into the setting easily. 

[mikepilk]

I use old contact lens cases - two compartments so I can keep top and bottom jewels separate. I use a drop of Elma WF Pro or naphtha, and 5 mins in the ultrasonic. Then IPA rinse.
If not spotless, I dip in IPA and rub them on some watch tissue using a lolly stick with a bit of leather glued on - buggr spending £££ on  Bergeon stuff  

[DrHWO]

13 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I use old contact lens cases - two compartments so I can keep top and bottom jewels separate. I use a drop of Elma WF Pro or naphtha, and 5 mins in the ultrasonic. Then IPA rinse.
If not spotless, I dip in IPA and rub them on some watch tissue using a lolly stick with a bit of leather glued on - buggr spending £££ on  Bergeon stuff  

Contact lens cases sounds like a safer solution. Do Bergeon make lollies? The last lolly I ate was a Mivvi, so that'll give you an idea of how temporally impaired I am! 

[Waggy]

13 hours ago, mikepilk said:

buggr spending £££ on  Bergeon stuff  

Especially seeing as the Brrgeon stuff is just perc (Tetrachloroethylenel) which you can buy litres of for next to nothing.

[DrHWO]

15 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

.......the oil grabs the cap jewel ...... 

Ah, capillary attraction can be useful then. So far it's been my enemy (separating the capstone from the chaton). Rodico and colourful expletives is my preferred method, although I have tried repurposing the fine tip from an auto oiler. Gave up on that after the tip snapped off and my usual expletives just didn't satisfy.

[Waggy]

39 minutes ago, DrHWO said:

separating the capstone from the chaton

To be honest I have rarely come across this, but I use naphtha and not IPA to clean the cap jewels, so maybe this is why? When I drop it in the naphtha they separate almost on contact.

[mikepilk]

44 minutes ago, DrHWO said:

Ah, capillary attraction can be useful then. So far it's been my enemy (separating the capstone from the chaton). Rodico and colourful expletives is my preferred method, although I have tried repurposing the fine tip from an auto oiler. Gave up on that after the tip snapped off and my usual expletives just didn't satisfy.

A few seconds in the ultrasonic and they always separate 

[VWatchie]

The cap jewels go into my cleaning machine (70-year-old ELMA w/o US) and usually come out visually clean. Even so, I always clean the cap jewels manually using the method shown in the below video. However, these days I also place a few drops of IPA in the centre of the watch tissue paper and then once I've cleaned the cap jewel in the IPA-soaked section of the paper I drag it out to the dry section of the paper to get rid of any IPA residue. I'm very satisfied with this method.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, DrHWO said:

Contact lens cases sounds like a safer solution. Do Bergeon make lollies? The last lolly I ate was a Mivvi, so that'll give you an idea of how temporally impaired I am! 

Haha an original Lyons Maid Mivvi in its 70s heyday.

1 hour ago, DrHWO said:

Ah, capillary attraction can be useful then. So far it's been my enemy (separating the capstone from the chaton). Rodico and colourful expletives is my preferred method, although I have tried repurposing the fine tip from an auto oiler. Gave up on that after the tip snapped off and my usual expletives just didn't satisfy.

It has its uses Doc when the lube is fluid. Both chucked in few drops of your chosen dissolver will sort out their years of mating. 

15 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

The cap jewels go into my cleaning machine (70-year-old ELMA w/o US) and usually come out visually clean. Even so, I always clean the cap jewels manually using the method shown in the below video. However, these days I also place a few drops of IPA in the centre of the watch tissue paper and then once I've cleaned the cap jewel in the IPA-soaked section of the paper I drag it out to the dry section of the paper to get rid of any IPA residue. I'm very satisfied with this method.

 

I tried this some time back when i started but couldn't get to grips with it. The paper would crinkle up and move around so had to be taped down as you've shown. And most times the jewel would flip out from under the pegwood if i wasn't careful. The sticky note pad works great ( i figured paper is paper and watch paper is so ridiculously light and unpredictable the culprit of lost jewels and springs I'm sure ) tear the top page off and away you go with a fresh clean page. And using my finger ontop of the jewel it cant escape to anywhere, i do find it best to use a bare finger as it slides better on the paper. A quick wipe with alcohol first to clean the finger pad and if I'm in a belt and braces mood i dot the cap with rodico before i insert the shock spring. You can always wear a cot if you prefer ( i hate wearing them and have taught myself to use them in a minimal way) if you have confidence while using any method then i think that plays a major roll in avoiding mishaps. 

[VWatchie]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

And most times the jewel would flip out from under the pegwood if i wasn't careful.

It could be that you didn't hold the piece of peg wood perfectly perpendicular to the cap jewel and perhaps in combination with pressing too hard on the jewel. Same principle with screwdrivers. If not held (near) perfectly perpendicular to the screw head the blade can slip, especially if not properly dressed.

Edited July 17, 2023 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

30 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

It could be that you didn't hold the piece of peg wood perfectly perpendicular to the cap jewel and perhaps in combination with pressing too hard on the jewel. Same principle with screwdrivers. If not held (near) perfectly perpendicular to the screw head the blade can slip, especially if not properly dressed.

I'm very sure you are right watchie, when i wasn't being careful enough the jewel could escape. This was just a case of finding something that worked better for me. Its something that I've always strived for in my day job for over 30 years , time is money for me and that habit never leaves you. This way made me a bit quicker and a bit safer, the pegwood didn't give me the same confidence, maybe i could have made the hollow a bit deeper which may have improved the slip but i didn't persist with refining that method. I just tried something else straight away and liked it better.

[mikepilk]

It's easy @Neverenoughwatches, glue a bit of soft leather/suede to a lolly stick (best not use 'Zoom' or 'Orbit' sticks ). When you press down the jewel gets embedded in the leather and you can't lose it. 

[DrHWO]

8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

 I always clean the cap jewels manually using the method shown in the below video..........

 

I'm going to have to give this a try. Thank you for the amazingly detailed advice. I suspect you need a light touch when applying the downwards pressure and a good sense of vertical to avoid Pingu, so I need to practice (a lot!)

27 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

........ When you press down the jewel gets embedded in the leather and you can't lose it.........

For my hamfisted self, thats one of the advantages that attracted me. It was pretty much downwards pressure independent, allowing me to eat the Mivvi with my other hand!

[Neverenoughwatches]

58 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

It's easy @Neverenoughwatches, glue a bit of soft leather/suede to a lolly stick (best not use 'Zoom' or 'Orbit' sticks ). When you press down the jewel gets embedded in the leather and you can't lose it. 

a bit chamois glued to a dowel stick could work well. At the moment I'm happy with my built in leather grip pad

43 minutes ago, DrHWO said:

I suspect you need a light touch when applying the downwards pressure and a good sense of vertical to avoid Pingu, so I need to practice (a lot!)

Thats what drew me away from that method. You are tempted to press down firm to buff the jewel up. Using a finger you barely need to consider anything. Try both ways and see how you feel about them. The only draw back i can think of is any transfer from finger to jewel, but it is mostly the top of the jewel possibly the side that may receive contamination if any. A quick wipe of your finger pad should eliminate this ( or wear a finger cot leather finger cot now theres an idea ) and you can always touch up with rodico or a toothpick condom before insertnng the shock spring. 

[DrHWO]

26 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Using a finger you barely need to consider anything..................

........Unless you are an inveterate nose picker, like me. I'm going to have dreams now about the possibility of synthetic rubies traversing the cribriform plate and into my frontal lobes. Might make me more decisive or even know WTF a toothpick condom is!

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, DrHWO said:

........Unless you are an inveterate nose picker, like me. I'm going to have dreams now about the possibility of synthetic rubies traversing the cribriform plate and into my frontal lobes. Might make me more decisive or even know WTF a toothpick condom is!

Doc you just need to refrain from the habit for a few minutes until you know the jewel is safe in the watch tucked up in bed. Ahh the good old toothpick condom,  not you may wonder have anything to do with a very virile after dinner wooden probing implement. Nor something purchased in the chemist department of tescos by a large car compensated dude. It is in fact a swiss watchmakers alternative answer to rodico given to us by the Nicklesilver one namely named by my goodself as the toothpick condom. It consists very simply of a toothpick dipped in contact adhesive ( something tells me you have a tin kicking around my good partner in wood crime ) . Not sure what the swiss use but i liked the idea of Evostick C.A. so i stuck with the sticky stuff.

[VWatchie]

12 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The sticky note pad works great ( i figured paper is paper and watch paper is so ridiculously light and unpredictable the culprit of lost jewels and springs I'm sure ) tear the top page off and away you go with a fresh clean page.

That sure sounds a lot more convenient and efficient. However, don't know if you saw my video to the end where I mention I also tried my method with printing paper. The problem with printing paper IMO is that it is too rough. When looking at the flat side of the cap jewel under 40x magnification I could clearly see the surface had been scratched by the printing paper. Not much, maybe even acceptable, but still.

Christian Lass cleaning a cap jewel using a piece of peg wood shaped like a screwdriver blade 

I say "IMO", because Christan Lass (Former Master watchmaker of the Patek Philippe Museum in Geneva) shows a similar method in one of his video tutorials (Watchmaking 101, Beginner Course) but is using common printing paper. I guess it could be that we only need to apply very little pressure on the stone. Thinking a bit more about it, it makes sense that printing paper is designed like emery paper. The roughness is there to scrape off enough black lead from the pencil for easy writing. Anyway, perhaps a sticky note pad + a light hand (whatever method) is the way to go!?

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

17 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

That sure sounds a lot more convenient and efficient. However, don't know if you saw my video to the end where I mention I also tried my method with printing paper. The problem with printing paper IMO is that it is too rough. When looking at the flat side of the cap jewel under 40x magnification I could clearly see the surface had been scratched by the printing paper. Not much, maybe even acceptable, but still.

Christian Lass cleaning a cap jewel using a piece of peg wood shaped like a screwdriver blade

I say "IMO", because Christan Lass (Former Master watchmaker of the Patek Philippe Museum in Geneva) shows a similar method in one of his video tutorials (Watchmaking 101, Beginner Course) but is using common printing paper. I guess it could be that we only need to apply very little pressure on the stone. Thinking a bit more about it, it makes sense that printing paper is designed like emery paper. The roughness is there to scrape off enough black lead from the pencil for easy writing. Anyway, perhaps a sticky note pad + a light hand (whatever method) is the way to go!?

 

I will have to have a look at that watchie, the jewel looks spotless afterwards and i cant say I've noticed scratches but i haven't tried looking for damage at x40 afterwards I  would be amazed to find that paper would be higher on the mohs scale than synthetic ruby which if i remember is around 8 or 9 . I wouldn't know the process of paper making only that my limited knowledge tells me its made from trees, so thats two things i need to look into now. . Just to add, it does look like someone is about to play tiddlywinks with cap jewels, i bet i could make a fun game with this.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[Nucejoe]

 What is wrong with pressing down on capstone with finger any reason why you use a toothpic or hollow wooden stick etc,  you are going to rinse the stone after pegging anyway.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 What is wrong with pressing down on capstone with finger any reason why you use a toothpic or hollow wooden stick etc,  you are going to rinse the stone after pegging anyway.

I just found using my finger a very simple method and really safe. 

[nickelsilver]

57 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

That sure sounds a lot more convenient and efficient. However, don't know if you saw my video to the end where I mention I also tried my method with printing paper. The problem with printing paper IMO is that it is too rough. When looking at the flat side of the cap jewel under 40x magnification I could clearly see the surface had been scratched by the printing paper. Not much, maybe even acceptable, but still.

Christian Lass cleaning a cap jewel using a piece of peg wood shaped like a screwdriver blade 

I say "IMO", because Christan Lass (Former Master watchmaker of the Patek Philippe Museum in Geneva) shows a similar method in one of his video tutorials (Watchmaking 101, Beginner Course) but is using common printing paper. I guess it could be that we only need to apply very little pressure on the stone. Thinking a bit more about it, it makes sense that printing paper is designed like emery paper. The roughness is there to scrape off enough black lead from the pencil for easy writing. Anyway, perhaps a sticky note pad + a light hand (whatever method) is the way to go!?

 

If I could hire someone you da guy.

Christian took over at V. Halter when I left and that kid knows his stuff. Ended up at Patek doing restoration and now his own watches. Clever, clever watchmaker